War Department Numbers

[cletrac (RIP)]

I was checking my period pix and decided to make a list of the CZ prefix War Dept numbers. These are the ones with the photo notation at the end. Next I got the numbers off the Canadian Register site and added them. Some of the Canadian Registry entries seem out of sync but they could be numbers somebody invented for their restoration.

1. CM195371 Chev sedan
2. CM1164447 Ford Station Wagon
3. CM1165332 Ford Station Wagon
4. CM4202080 Ford sedan
5. CZ4204396 F15 2A1 Cab 11
6. CZ4204062 F15 2A1 GS 1 Cab 11
7. CZ4204797 F8 1A1 Pers1 Cab 11
8. CZ4204834 F15 2A1 Cable 1 Cab 11
9. CZ4204994 8cwt 1A1 Pers1 Cab 11
10. CZ4205245 F15 2A1 GS1 Cab 11
11. CZ4205649 C15 2A1 GS1 Cab 11
12. CZ4206605 F15 Cab 11
13. CZ4206844 15cwt 2B1 AAAT2 Cab 11
14. CZ420???? 15 cwt 2B1 ATT2
15. CH4207357 Artillery tractor Cab 11
16. CZ4210143 C8A HUM Cab 13
17. CZ421344? C15 2E1 water Cab 12
18. CZ4213512 C15A Water Cab 12
19. CZ4213659 C15 2B1 Cab 13
20. CZ4214008 C8A HUC Cab 13
21. CH4217647 Medium artillery tractor
22. CZ42281?? C15 Water Cab 13
23. CZ4228552 C8A HUP Cab 13
24. CM4233904 Chrysler sedan
25. CM4242313 Jeep
26. CX4244056 Artillery Tractor Cab 13
27. CM4245668 wrecker
28. CL4247550 C60L Cab 13
29. CL4247857 C60L Gas Cab 13
30. CZ4254984 F15A Cab 13
31. CZ4255794 C8A HUW Cab 13
32. CZ4256001 F15A Cab 13
33. CZ4256418 F15A Cab 13
34. CZ4257434 C15A 2C1 Van Cab 13
35. CZ42563?? F15A Cab 13
36. CZ4258169 15 cwt White
37. CZ42590?? F15A house body Cab 13
38. CZ4285706 15 cwt Cab 13
39. CZ4285711 F15 Cab 13
40. CL4283572 C60L Caravan Cab 13
41. CZ4287905 C15TA Cab 13
42. CZ4287946 C15TA Cab 13
43. CZ4287985 C15TA Cab 13
44. CZ4288020 C15TA Cab 13

If anyone has any C numbers to add from period pix I'll put them in the list.
I deleted all of the Canadian Register because they were so out of sync.

[cletrac (RIP)]

Here's a page from Canada's Fighting Vehicles with info about the Canadian overseas War Dept numbers. The CZ numbers are for the 8 cwt and 15 cwt vehicles. The 30 cwt and 60 cwt got the CL prefix. I made this list to see what numbers would be appropriate for the different cab styles. The CZ series seems to start with 4200000 and go to around 4300000. I'm sure that Canadian Register 5791190 is bogus as well as a few others. Perhaps we can post wartime pix with the visible numbers and avoid this kind of confusion.

[Rich Payne]

I've posted this one before but not sure where.


http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/g...C5109W4749.jpg

Please ignore the caption. He's not a messenger but RCMP

Rich

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by cletrac

If anyone has any CZ numbers to add preferably from period pix I'll put them in the list.

David,

It would be best to relay on period pictures and documents, or only restored trucks with a documented provenance.

Here are some census numbers from the thread Wartime pictures wanted: CMP F15A, all F15A´s with Cab 13:

• CZ4254984
• CZ4256001
• CZ4256418
• CZ4285711

When I find more I´ll post them here.

- Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Cross reference to same subject discussed a few years back: War Dept. numbers.

- Hanno

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Period document, a road accident report, listing 1st Cdn Army Ford 15cwt truck with vehicle W.D. number CZ4206605 (read more on my web page).

[cletrac (RIP)]

Here's five from Canada's Fighting Vehicles. I was kind of surprised that the White fit the category.
Note the two penthouses on the HUP.

[Phil Waterman]

Over the years there have been two attempts to collect WD numbers from CMPs both John Merchant and Peter Ford tried to collect this information from CMP owners. In corresponding with both of them one of the issues was the originality of the numbers reported.

When I first restored my HUP I put it in the markings of a Canadian Unit at the close of the war. The WD number on the door was totally bogus taken form the vehicles serial number, yes now I know that there is no correlation but then I didn't. After having learned the true history of my HUP and found proof my marking problems were solved.

Thus I think you have probably hit on the best route to a list of WD numbers and matching vehicles. Gleaning through the photo archives that were not readily accessible before the web.

Cheers Phil

[cletrac (RIP)]

Here's some more. I've edited my original post to link the pix to the CZ numbers.
You can't see the hood on this water truck but then all water bodies were on Cab 12s, weren't they?

[cletrac (RIP)]

I dug up a few more. It's quite surprising how far out the numbers on a lot of the restored vehicles really are. Maybe this thread will help solve that problem. I'm going to delete all the references with no pix for that reason.
The CZ numbers seem to go from about 4204000 to 4290000. That's about ninety thousand 8 cwt and 15 cwt vehicles in Canadian service overseas. According to Canada's Fighting Vehicles there were 133442 vehicles of the types I've found produced. When you take into account the ones that stayed home and the ones that went to other countries that makes me think there must have been large gaps in the numbering system or more types included.

[servicepub (RIP)]

I have a number of documents at home, issued at intervals, that list the blocks of WD numbers allocated to the Canadian Army Overseas (CAO). The numbers were not allocated as 420,000 to 450,000 for Jeeps (as an example) but could be 420,000 to 421,500 then 443,700 to 444,600, etc....
In addition to the large blocks in the 4xx,xxx range, the early days of the war saw a numbering system in the 117,000 range (from memory so don't hold me to this).
These different systems were based on the vehicle being under the control of either the Service Corps or of the Master General of the Ordnance (MGO). By 1941 these distinctions disppeared and all vehicles in the early block were re-numbered with numbers from the later block. This will explain why lorries made in 1940 could have a WD number that follows a lorry made in 1941.
Still with WD numbers - at the beginning of the war the CAO rented vehicles from the War Office. As these were not the property of the CAO the WD numbers were those applied by the British - not even the "c" prefix was permitted. I have some of these lists as well.
Unfortunately, all of these documents are at home - and I am not. I will try to remember to update this in November when I am back in God's country.

[Phil Waterman]

Here is one picture from a batch I bought on E-bay a few years ago all of the pictures are posted on http://www.canadianmilitarypattern.c...20Columbia.htm . The picture below is the only one where the number is readable. Z57-092

Just added blow-up of door number

Cheers Phil

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Excellent work!

But a few minor corrections:

Originally Posted by cletrac

CZ4205245 C15 2A1 GS1 Cab 11

This is an F15, not a C15. Note the push bar. The paint circle on the front cowl is misleading.

Originally Posted by cletrac

CZ4205649 15cwt 2A1 GS1 Cab 11

C15, also note the push bar.

Originally Posted by cletrac

CZ4206605 F15 Cab 11

The road accident report lists a "Ford 15-cwt", could be an F15 or F15A with any type of cab.

Originally Posted by cletrac

CZ4285711 F15 ATT Cab 13

Why do you list this as an ATT?

Keep up the good work, I´ll post any other numbers I find here to add them to the list.

Cheers,
Hanno

[cletrac (RIP)]

Hanno, I made the corrections. I called the one an ATT by mistake. I had a similar picture of one pulling a 6 pounder instead of the trailer.

[cletrac (RIP)]

Phil, the number that you posted is for a vehicle that never went overseas and as such is a different numbering system. I'm going to expand this to include all of the softskins so I'll post these.

[cletrac (RIP)]

I'm scanning the C series pix from Canada's Fighting Vehicles. Here's the first five.

[Jim Price]

Can somebody tell me when my F8, serial no. 1G-6461 F*, was manufactured and what the appropriate War Department CZ number I could add to it would be?

Thanks!
Jim

[cletrac (RIP)]

Jim, it would have been manufactured in 1940 and the only F8 number I have is CZ4204797. That one would be 1940 too so pick a number within a few hundred and you'll be OK. This is the very reason why I started this thread. If you're going to use one of these numbers it should be about right. It's surprising how far out of range a lot of the restored vehicles are.
Click on the blue number in the top post and you'll have the picture showing the number's placement.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Jim, I might have the monthly Windsor Plant engine production numbers still, which wil tell me when Ford of Canada built your truck.

OTT that photo of the '40 Chevrolet has finally struck me after all these years as being a very rare shot. This is because it was either assembled at Aldershot (unlikely, as I thought that they were all Ford sedans or Wagons) or Southampton.There were several Chevy sedans destroyed in the bombing of the CMD in Southampton on November 30/ December 1 1940 and clearly this one escaped. It must have been delivered before the blitzing and thus with good timing. I believe that the Chevies were only shipped at the earliest in June 1940, and possibly a while later. Without checking I thinki the papers that I have ex-DND show that they may not have been ordered from GM until June.

The location is not Southampton and I wonder if it is in the Bordon, Hampshire, RCASC Depot? I have seen that photo hundreds of times and it never struck me before.

[Jim Price]

David P,
Thanks for the info and the suggestion on the numbers to use. By the way, I believe that the CZ stencils are 2 1/2". I checked with Rick Larsen's site and he has 2" and 3". Where do I find the correct size ones?

Regards,
Jim

[Jim Price]

David H,
Will appreciate anything you can find on that production date!

Regards,
Jim

[cletrac (RIP)]

Jim, look at the image in my second post. It says the numbers are to be 3 1/2 inches tall. From the pictures it looks like by 1944 or so they went to smaller letters.
On your truck I'd go with a number just under 4205000 since the F15 on the list is an earlier version with no cowl vents.

[Jim Price]

David,
Oops! Didn't read your post like I should have! Will probably go with 3" letters/numbers.
Do you know where the F8 with the number 4204797 was used during the war, Canada or Great Britain or somewhere else?
Regards,
Jim

[Mike Kelly]

Originally Posted by Jim Price

Do you know where the F8 with the number 4204797 was used during the war, Canada or Great Britain or somewhere else?

Hi Jim

I am willing to be shot down in flames on this one. But I have picked up from various books and pics over the years that: apart from service in Canada itself and the U.K., many C8 and F8's ended up in the Nth Africa/Middle East theatre - where they were definately used by British, New Zealand and Australian units and probably other nations ..even the opposing enemy ! I wonder if some of the 8 cwts were shipped directly from Canada to Nth Africa. From memory, this was the case with the light stone finished Dodge D8A's, so maybe the same thing occured with C8 and F8.
Mike

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Jim,

F8 CZ4204797 was most likely pictured in the UK. As noted earlier:

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

As per the manual, by 1944 they were "used only in limited numbers in the UK as general purpose load carrier for supplies and stores over good roads by CRU (Canadian Reinforcement Unit) or other base units."

It was not used in Canada, as at home they used a different census numbering system, of which Phil waterman posted an example.

As Mike says, they were used in action in the North African and Middle East theatres of operation. Attached goes a picture of an F8 captured by the German Afrika Korps and put to good use.

[cletrac (RIP)]

Here's five more.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Note: I fixed the links in the first posting above, so this message is no longer valid:

Note: when cliking on any of the link below, please note they refer to an old URL (website address) Change the www.class-five.com/~mlu part in your browser to http://www.mapleleafup.net.

So e.g. http://www.class-five.com/~mlu/forum...5&d=1238724818 becomes http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/at...5&d=1238724818

Hope this helps.