Transfer case surgery....

[Bob Carriere]

After scraping dried up grease/mud/lub juice etc from the transfer case I succombed to opeing the innards of the beast......

Well I got concerned when I drained very little oil and more water and noticed that the PTO shaft to the winch was very stiff to turning by hand....... sure gald I did. The bearings in the PTO extension are rusted... the oil passage to the extension plugged with sluge and that section held it own supply of water.

The bearings both the same are Timken with a part number to work from......

I was amazed at the ruggedness and simplicity of the transfer case.

Now for the questions...... I followed the instructions from the manual and kept all the shims tied with a wire to the respective cap.

Gaskets...... Phil Waterman might have already walked this mile... they are very thin..... what kind of stock should I be using.... grocery bags brown craft...... file covers....... expensive stiff high rag content letter head..... or proper gasket stock of what thickness...... I am particularly concenred since the thickness will affect the bearing loading...... I am handy with scissors and gasket punch.......

Oil seals........ most seem to have brand and names/### any good source......

I realize that I now will have to get the parts manual for the two speed t-case.....Alex.... are you listening....

Well at least I did finally get to soak the whole t-case in a tub of gasoline to properly degrease the whole thing..... wasn't so heavy after it was all in pieces.....

What else will I find next.

Bob C.

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Bob Carriere
Oil seals........ most seem to have brand and names/### any good source......

I realize that I now will have to get the parts manual for the two speed t-case.....Alex.... are you listening....

I noticed that this item is a GMC CCKW seal and bears the same (Chev) part number as a CMP transfer case seal. Now this might really open up a can of worms for David Hayward, but I would really like to compare a parts listing for the transfer case in a CCKW to a CMP list and see just what parts the CCKW and CMP share. I KNOW that GMC's had Banjo and Split diffs and seem to recall they had specific T/Cases to match. I would hazard a guess that GMC parts would be easier to find, especially in the States.

[Lynn Eades]

Tony, You are correct. The transfercases in the Timken/Banjo GMC's are totally different, so much so that the front driveshafts turn in opposite directions. However I do not remember what makes they are, although I'm sure we have an expert somewhere here on this forum. Personaly I'd be buying a neoprene replacement seal, as opposed to hunting for a NOS leather seal. Some things have definitely improved.

[Phil Waterman]

Bob I have all the source numbers for the Pat 12 C60L bin holding off posting them until I knew if the operation was a success. Just mounted the transfercase back on the truck along with both front and rear axles. The proof will be if they hold oil. Do you want the numbers now or do you want to hear if I'm taking everything apart again?

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Phil

I could use the numbers for the t-case now...... will need to replace the bearings and maybe the shaft in the extesnion tube for the front axle...... dam road salt has eaten into the casting and the bearings are gonner. At first I believed that it was the extension to the PTO for the winch.... then realized I was looking at the t-case upside down. It stands to reason that the lower part of the t-case would be rusted when you consider the cup of water that came out. I beleive the C60 in the back lot may have a better t-case or at least be able to transplant the extension tube for the front axle.

Speaking of seal numbers I walked in to a seal shop today looking for the big front axle seals.... he had them stock... brand new neoprene for $20 CDN each.....

One more problem.... did you totally dismantle your front axle..??

When you undo the flange on each side of the front axle....directly inside the main body of the axle is a small 3.5 inch oil/lub seal that the axle shaft go through to connect to the gear cluster....... seal is 1.725 ID on the shaft..... seal supplier cannot find any replacements...... what did you come up with???

I can get a seal with the proper 1.730 ID but the outside is too small..... I am thinking of having the machine shop fabricate a spacer for the outside diametre then pin or tack weld the items in place....... what is your advice or sage one!!!!!

I may have to go back and pester and old farmer to let me have the cut up C30 or 60 for more parts...... if only the wife new...!

Bob C.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I have a Xerox of the GMC Parts List and will see if I can find the transfer case references.

It looks as though we will have a nice little job now comparing cases. The answer may lie in that GMC Pontiac and Chevrolet's Flint assembly plants used Chevrolet axles and cases which were produced by the Chevrolet Axle Plant in Flint as well as bought-in Timken-Detroit and Wisconsin components because Timken and Wisconsin could not produce all requirements.

In advance of my checking, this is from my notes on military GMCs:

"
CCW-353: ENGINE: 270 CU. IN. [35.34 h.p.]; 5-SPEED CLARK GEARBOX; TRANSFER CASE: ONE-SPEED MODIFIED GMC 591321; I-BEAM FRONT AXLE: TIMKEN-DETROIT MODEL 31116-H-X4 AS USED ON AC-502 AND CC-351; REAR AXLES, BANJO, TANDEM BOGIE WITH TORQUE RODS CHEVROLET 3665609 & 3665610.

ACK-353 AND ACKWX–353 248 OR 256 CU IN ENGINE; USED TIMKEN-DETROIT SPLIT-TYPE AXLES FRONT AND REAR SERIES 31000.

CCKW[X]-352/253: ENGINE: 270 CU. IN.; 5-SPEED CLARK GEARBOX; TRANSFER CASE: 2-SPEED CHEVROLET 3659994; FRONT AXLE G.M. FULL-FLOATING WITH BANJO-TYPE HOUSING-BENDIX-WEISS OR RZEPPA C.V. JOINTS; CHEVROLET 3663017 OR TIMKEN-DETROIT [MODEL 31116-H-X4?]/WISCONSIN T-79 TRANSFER CASE AND SPLIT-TYPE AXLES; REAR AXLES FULL-FLOATING, BANJO CHEVROLET 3665609 & 3665610.

The GMC and Chevrolet transfer cases were all listed as being manufactured by Chevrolet. This must be when the Wisconsin part was not used".

[Phil Waterman]

“ did you totally dismantle your front axle..?? “YUP down to the last nut and screw, will finish reassembling it today after I sign off. As the purpose of the inter seal is to keep the differential grease from running into the steering knuckle at the end and hence out into the brakes. This only happens on a steep cross slope. I have never replaced these on any of the trucks logic being that I am not likely to lay the truck over enough for this to be a leak problem. I just leave the old seal in place to act as a dam.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I have found the pages for the GMC transfer cases, with diagrams and parts listings. Would it be helpful to scan them and post them for comparison?

[Bob Carriere]

Hi David

YEs I would love to see the diagram...... I will even name my first born after you.......


I have just checked the parts number on the oil seals of the 2 speed T-case I took apart..... there are 4 seals in all

all are stamped National...... H50300 is 3 " OD

next is H 30061 is 2 7/17 OD

and finally H 30300 is 3" OD but slightly different/larger ID.....and there are two (2) 0f them on the T-case.

The NOS GMC seal listed on EBay are the 50300...some are lsited as $3.99 loosely packed in a box of 11o and the individual sealed packages of the same 50300 is $5.99... is the individual packaging worth it????

NOw for Dr. Phil..... to late for me to leave the old seals alone.... one side was damaged... I presumed by the loose flaying axle shaft when it was previously broken.

Now I need replacements...dimension are...ID shaft size is 43.85mm......= to 1.728 inches....... outside dimensions which are critical to a good tight fit is 92.00mm

According to the seal/bearing guy I can get a ID of 1.732 (close enough) but he largest outside diametre OD is 72mm and I need 92mm. I am thinking of getting the local machine shop to make me an adaptor to fill the gap.... which I can epoxy and even spot weld inplace... in turn the new seal would fit in the middle of it.

Advise any one????

See picture attached of the said seal and location.

Next I have to source the bearings.... it seems that they are almost all the same tappered Tinken # 33?.... same number on all of them.... barn is to far to run to right now......

Stay tuned.

Bob C.

[Stefan Leegwater]

Hi Bob,

Dirk has got new inner seals on the shelf, better replace them then just leave them eh?

You're progress is looking good!!!

Cheers from hot hot Holland,

Stefan

just a couple weeks to Beltring 2005!!!!!!!

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Stefan

Stop teasing me........When can I get them...... I will take four....just in case.....

Did you get my previous e-mail listing all the things I wanted...???

I need your help bad.....!!!

Bob C.

[Gunner]

Hi Guys:

Since we are on the subject of grease and oil caked underbelly parts I have a question about the compressor on the trannie of my 43 Frd LAAT. It has a 1/4 inch machined hole (no evidence of thread) between the bottom two screws holding the housing together. If you shine a light inside you can see the gear.

Should this hole have a plug or is it meant to remain open?

Cheers! Mike

I have a photo but still haven't sat down to learn how to post it.:

[Gunner]

Duhh! I just learned how to use the browse feature.

Cheers! Mike

[edited by moderator to attach .jpg instead of .zip file]

[gordon]

... but you know what I'm like when it gets to a discussion.

it's my understanding that the split and banjo GMC transfer cases were absolutely identical, and that the driveshaft yokes were the only parts that made them specific to either split or banjo.

I've owned a DUKW and a GMC, both banjo, and I have tinkered with and handled the cases though I'd have to admit I've never had the reason to handle a T-Case from a split axle truck.

The banjo driveshafts certainly seem to be interchangeable between a number of trucks, as the ones I was sold for my US 1.5 ton Chev came from a Canadian Chevrolet and fitted very nicely.....

Gordon

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Gunner
I have a question about the compressor on the trannie of my 43 Ford LAAT. It has a 1/4 inch machined hole (no evidence of thread) between the bottom two screws holding the housing together. If you shine a light inside you can see the gear.

Should this hole have a plug or is it meant to remain open?

It should have an oil cup pressed into the sideplate, known by the cryptic name of C11Q-19947. Let Thing show you:

[Keith Webb]

Has Thing been taking shrinking pills? Been on a diet? That must be a tyre pump off a monster blitz! Oh, and the oil cup?
All the better to leak!

[Bob Carriere]

I believe Stew Loy bought an NOS one from Marc M. at CC4....

...Stew does your pump have a wee willy oil thingie at the bottom????

Bob C.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bob Carriere
...Stew does your pump have a wee willy oil thingie at the bottom????

Now Bob, I don't think it's polite to discuss Stewart's wee willy in a public forum...

[Bob Carriere]

Have you seen it????

TSK TSK TSK!!!!

[Bob Carriere]

I meant to reply to Geoff concerning Stew's wee willy.... from the T case surgery thread....maybe it is time for me to go to bed!!!

Geoff you may wish to delete or move to the other thread before Stew realize we are making fun of his little pump....

BooB

[Lynn Eades]

Just dont post a picture!

[Phil Waterman]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
It should have an oil cup pressed into the sideplate, known by the cryptic name of C11Q-19947. Let Thing show you:

Looking at the tire pump picture I suddenly remembered the fun we had going through security at Heathrow Airport a few years ago with one in our carry-on luggage. At the time I was arguing with the guard about x-raying the 27 roles of film he insisting that it would do no damage and me requesting that they hand inspect. Then my bag went thought the x-ray machine and everything stopped. Margaret (wife) is standing there talking to the other guard trying to explain what it is to the guys on the luggage unit, without much success, until she says something like “oh it’s a part for a lorry” that they understood. Once we got through and were walking toward the plane she said “you get to explain it to customs in Boston”.

[Gunner]

Tony:

Thank you. I'm eternally grateful and will press in a bent piece of copper pipe fitted with a rubber cap until the day I find an original wee willie thingie! Your photo blown up to full scale gave me the size and angle perfectly. Would you believe there are seven other CMPs in the yard and not one other has a compressor so I could compare!

I also posted the question on another forum. For the education of those who don't do both, I have posted your picture and an explanation there.

Amazing thing (not Thing) this internet...!

Mike

[Bob Carriere]

Final estimate for all new bearings and seals for the T case will be around $400 Cdn dollars.... will eventually share all my parts number with Phil Waterman who is working on a super spread sheet of all up to date parts number.......

As an aside... the brake relining....bonded but with two mandatory rivets at the tailend and leading edge..... safety consideration for vehicles who are not driven regularly.... is $317 Cdn plus another $100 ++ for the radius adjustment of the shoes to the drums....... but it will be all brand spanking new.......

National Brake and Cluth in Ottawa have been very helpful.

Bob C.

[Bob Carriere]

I am rebuilding my T-case and installing new bearing and race....

However..... on the idler shaft... I have to remove the speedometre worm drive gear with a special "puller"...... I am sure I wil never find the appropriate puller listed in the 1944 MB-C2,,,,, what do I use to safely without damage remove that gear.

Both bearings on the idler shaft need replacing..... the hydraulic press sure comes in handy now.....

Phil.... I did you do yours????

[Phil Waterman]

For the speedo gear I used a 3 jaw bearing puller, but it needs to be a good one. I pulled the jaw ends right off a cheep one. Loaded the screw with a 10" (inch not foot) wrench then tapped the end with a hammer. Tightened and repeat, as I remember once it let loose initially it came off pretty easy.

Speaking of speedometer gears did your transmission have the shaft gear as well? The Pattern 12 did but neither of the Pattern 13 had one.

[Bob Carriere]

Phil..... of all the various pullers I have none that have the leg surfaces small enough to get behind the gear in the limited space between the big nut and the gear.....

The bearing shop tells me to use a bearing seperator.... a two piece device that wedges between the gear and the nut... sort of like a large scissor action..... now kust by chance Princess Auto has a sale tomorrow and th sucker is on sale..... guess where I am going after work.....

On the tranny speedo gear... I have seen both set up... it seems that the earlier models... cab 11/12 still made use of civilian parts and the speedo gear if cut and installed is usually capped. On the later models.... cab 13...circa42 or 43 they have the metal boss on the tranny back cover but it was not drilled or machined at all..... certainly a time saver in wartime constrcution when not needed...... I would guess that it was probably stop when they stopped civvy production mid 40s..... only Master David Hayward would know the exact day of the week.... what is your guess David?


Will keep you posted of my progress.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

On the later models.... cab 13...circa42 or 43 they have the metal boss on the tranny back cover but it was not drilled or machined at all..... certainly a time saver in wartime constrcution when not needed...... I would guess that it was probably stop when they stopped civvy production mid 40s..... only Master David Hayward would know the exact day of the week.... what is your guess David?

I wonder if this was referred to in the say GM of Canada service note bulletins? I would have said that as civilian production ended in January 1942 at Windsor Transmission Plant, that this is when time-saving measures would have been introduced.

[Bob Carriere]

.... where are you when we need you....

I have copies of the service bulletin available for Alex but do not remember seeing anything on such changes....but then at my age I do forget a lot....

How about Master Alex...??

[Bob Carriere]

Finally got it off.... just a matter fo getting the proper tool... I keep telling the wife their is always a tool I do not have and need... found at Princess Auto.....