Returning the favour

[Hanno Spoelstra]

"As a belated thank you for the thousands of vehicles transferred from Canadian Army stocks to the Netherlands Army in 1945, the Dutch Minister of Defence has decided to transfer one hundred as-good-as-new Leopard 2 tanks to the Canadian Armed Forces".

Just kidding of course, but those Leo 2's are a great buy and I'm convinced the Canadian Forces now have one of - if not the - most capable tank available to your military today. Only one careful owner, with full service history and all modifications and upgrades incorporated at a fraction of the cost of a similar, new tank (yes, we'll do anything to lower the Defence budget ).

See background for the full story.

Regards,
Hanno

[servicepub (RIP)]

I am as pleased as Punch that the Royal Canadian Armoured Corps now has a renewd capability. But I now have to go and redo the Weapons of War booklet on the Leopard - which ended with the Leopard being taken out of service.

[Gunner]

I can see it now... "Leopard II in Canadian Service". With many photo credits to Darrel Zinck!

Mike

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Gunner
I can see it now... "Leopard II in Canadian Service". With many photo credits to Darrel Zinck!

... Yes, I can see it now also, if Darrel were to write it ..... the text portion of the book, including photo captions written in the phonetic alphabet!

ROMEO OSCAR YANKEE ALPHA LIMA
CHARLIE ALPHA NOVEMBER ALPHA DELTA INDIA ALPHA NOVEMBER
DELTA ROMEO ALPHA GOLF OSCAR OSCAR NOVEMBER SIERRA

Cheers

[Darrell Zinck]

...Yes, I can see it now also, if Darrel were to write it ..... the text portion of the book, including photo captions written in the phonetic alphabet!...

Naw...........I'll leave it for some filthy Strat to do!! They're obsessed with tanks.

Besides, I'm more a Recce guy, than a "Tanky". If you wanted more than just one syllable words in the book, you'd best not pick me!!!

Nice to be thought of though!! Perhaps if they arrive in theatre before I return, I'll send some pics.

regards
Darrell

*Hanno, are you sure you can't send them for free??!!

[rob love]

Sounds like tank envy to me. There are only two kinds of zipperheads;
a) those who have tanks, and

b) those who don't so they pretend they don't care but really it's eating them up inside.

Which one are you Darrell?




This major purchase must be driving the Liberals nuts. Not only is the Canadian Forces getting good quality warlike equipment, but the Libs are not reaping any kickbacks into their funds.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Rob

Happy to say I'm neither.

Until we get proper trade separation between Tank and Recce(never happen), I'm still a Zip; just a Recce Zip.

Yeah, tanks are fun and somewhat.................empowering but, to be honest, I prefer Recce for it's freedom. We're not four callsigns with our fenders tied to one another. We're allowed much more freedom of action and initiative. Of course the down side is we're much more lightly protected WRT firepowerand armour but even tanks can be hurt. Thankfully no injuries from the AT mine strike shown below.

regards
Darrell

[Bill Murray]

Forgive me for I have sinned, or in this case sinning.

What in the bloody hell are the Canadians going to do with 100 MBT vehicles, even if they were given them for nothing, in today's potential conflict environment????
Now, and I suspect in the near to mid/long term future, we are dealing with insurgent situations, ethnic purging situations, religious purging situations etc. etc.

There are no more standing armies such as we faced during the "Cold War", I suspect there will be no set piece battles such as we have not seen since the 1970's in the foreseeable future.

Personal opinion only my friends, but it is my feeling that the development of IEDs and now Super IEDs and the proliferation of RPGs that any deadhead can fire off have made MBTs and a hell of a lot of other similar vehicles pretty much redundant.

Even my own country's Stryker vehicles are pretty much prohibited from straying too far from the fold of a nice safe enclave because they are so vulnerable to IEDs and RPGs.

All due respect to all of you tankers out there, and by the way all of you Arty guys as well, but warfare as we know it has taken quite a turn, again, my personal opinion.

As frightening as it may seem, I see in the short term future a lot of activity by aircraft/missiles and less and less reliance on boots on the ground. Most of the countries we represent here do not want to look at casualty lists of soldiers/marines/sailors involved in a senseless ground conflict.

Just my opinion, and I would not want to see the maintenance bills on those "prisitine" Leapords in a few years.
Bill

[Ryan]

Hey Bill and all,
Here's my two cents.
Well done Canada, only wish Australia had of went with Leo2's instead of Abrams-just a personal thing as Abrams is still a huge improvement over our 1970's Leo1's.
No one can predict the future so one should be prepared to face all threats especially in a world where most if not all nations have access to advanced weapons. Large standing armies still exist and potentially western nations may have to face them (eg: North Korea).
Set piece battles have occurred since the 1970's involving large armoured forces. 1991 Desert Storm/Sabre comes to mind. The 2003 invasion of Iraq was also an armoured/mechanized affair.
IED's no doubt pose large risks to armour but it is not the death of armour. And as the troops are finding out on the ground 9 times out of 10 a "deadhead" with an RPG when faced by a tank or LAV rolling at him will panic and miss.
And finally, if governments don't keep buying armour what are we collectors going to do 50 years down the track?
Regards

[rob love]

I think the photo above shows why tanks are still relevant: because they are heavier than any wheeled vehicle. We sent some into Kosovo as a show of muscle back in the late 90s/2000 time period. Sure, they might be irrelevant when fighting a formed military, or a major power like the US/Chinese/Russia, but when you are fighting against a insurgent army like that in Afghanistan, they seem to fit the bill.
I am only armchair athlete in these matters now, but if the Cdn Govt can spend 1billion + on gun control over the law abiding citizens, using the excuse "if it saves just one life, it's worth it", then it had better spend similar amounts on equipment which will save it's emplloyees lives.

It was only a couple years ago the Liberal government sent our guys out there with Iltis 4 cyl jeeps as the main recce vehicle, while it was selling these Leopards for the sum of about $14000 each.

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
"As a belated thank you for the thousands of vehicles transferred from Canadian Army stocks to the Netherlands Army in 1945, the Dutch Minister of Defence has decided to transfer one hundred as-good-as-new Leopard 2 tanks to the Canadian Armed Forces".

Better than nothing, but perhaps I'd prefer our indigenous, and battle-proven, lump of very expensive ironware.

However, MoD don't seem minded to give or sell any and are as usual saying absolutely nothing about what it does and how it does it.

R.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Just yesterday it was announced the Netherlands MoD will strike another 28 Leopard 2 tanks off charge. Takers, anyone?

I´m sure you can make a good deal if you decide to buy the two dozen armoured SP houwitzers which are being sold off as well!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
the Netherlands MoD will strike another 28 Leopard 2 tanks off charge

Just looked it up: initially we bought 445, these were delivered between 1981 and 1986. 114 of these (and one turret) were later resold to Austria, 52 to Norway and 100 to Canada.

Looks like the operational strenght is down to 82 now, the rest are for sale.

H.

[Ryan]

Hi Hanno,
At the Avalon airshow this year was one of the Dutch Self Propelled Guns you have pictured. It, as well as a South Korean type were undergoing trials as Australia has a requirement for just such a vehicle.

[Barry Churcher]

The Canadian Military was having second thoughts about the Leopard deal. They are a little gun shy after buying Britains leaky submarines. To sweeten the deal the Dutch have thrown in 100 Iltis replacements, one with each Leopard. Now we couldn't sign on the dotted line fast enough.
Barry

[Pedr]

The numberplate on that car is a bit of a worry. Someone needs to explain to that person that, that IS NOT a DUKW, before there's a catastrophic disaster.

LOL

Pedr