Motorcycles

[servicepub (RIP)]

Can anyone suggest a good reference that clearly explains the different headlights and blackout lights on WWII motorcycles?

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally posted by servicepub
Can anyone suggest a good reference that clearly explains the different headlights and blackout lights on WWII motorcycles?

Hi Clive..
Will look through some info..mean while I found some good tech gin and line drawing of the Indian 340 with s/car and the WLA HD..
in the motorcycle section of the TM9-2800..all the specs are there..
Call and drop by anytime and get the info..

[Rich Payne]

I know of no single reference source. In terms of the British machines, there have been various magazine articles dealing with electrical equipment of the period but nothing specifically relating to the military versions. Most makers followed their pre-war practice and used Lucas components although some Matchlesses had Miller as did some smaller manufacturers.

I have copies of Norton WD parts books from 1937 and 1940 including the VAOS LV7s relating to proprietary parts which confirm that the same units were fitted to Norton and BSA at that time.

In Lucas terminology, MU headlamps had no switch panel (the 1930s fashion was for tank-panel mounted controls) and DU lamps have the switch and Ammeter panel.

Nortons at least always used DU lamps on the WD contracts.

The DU142 was the 1930s / early war 7 1/2" unit (referred to as 8") and the DU42 was the 6 1/2" unit which replaced it.

Blackout masks seem to have been supplied by various manufacturers and I have not seen any factory fresh shots showing them fitted. Were they perhaps fitted locally according to requirements ?

If you would like to see copies of the relevant pages from the parts books, let me know (they relate to Norton contracts C9681 and C5109) Likewise if there are any specific areas that you are looking for confirmation on then I can have a ferret through my back-issues.

By the way, was Orchard & Madden a useful purchase for you ?

Rich.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by Alex Blair
Call and drop by anytime and get the info..

Thanks Alex, I will call you towards the end of the week.

Originally posted by Rich Payne
By the way, was Orchard & Madden a useful purchase for you ?

O&M was especially useful in further identifying models in the many photographs that I have and for that is priceless.

In reviewing over 300 photos it appears that the blackout mask applied to most bikes is of a standard pattern. Unfortunatel, to date I have only located a document that calls for headlamps to be covered with an earlier style of mask which included a 1/8 hole and a 6 watt bulb placed behind the hole.

I am also looking for information on HD tail lights

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Rich Payne
Blackout masks seem to have been supplied by various manufacturers and I have not seen any factory fresh shots showing them fitted.

Rich,

Here is a part of an IWM photo of a factory fresh WM20, ( so clear you can read the serial numbers on the tyres ). It shows the headlamp, a Lucas DU42 type fitted with a mask, they would undoubtably have been issued from the factory with masks once war started, due to them being subject to blackout regulations.

I found a new one of these many years ago, boxed and it was made by Lucas, with the hood and slot under it, below a small circle of holes for the sidelight to show.

Richard

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
Rich,

Here is a part of an IWM photo of a factory fresh WM20, ( so clear you can read the serial numbers on the tyres ). It shows the headlamp, a Lucas DU42 type fitted with a mask, they would undoubtably have been issued from the factory with masks once war started, due to them being subject to blackout regulations.

I found a new one of these many years ago, boxed and it was made by Lucas, with the hood and slot under it, below a small circle of holes for the sidelight to show.

Richard

I am sure that once the war got rolling these masks were applied at the factory, however, others were probably installed at the Ordnance Depot upon receipt (and at the same time that the WD number was applied) while others were put on to existing bikes as well as those brought from North America (H-Ds and Indians).

[Rich Payne]

Thanks Richard, it looks as if I've been guilty of focussing too much on early-war Nortons again.

Presumably the "visored" type came in with the DU42 ? Most of the variation seems to be on the 142 which originally just had the Manilla paper mask inserted behind the glass.

I still have the paper mask in my rear MT110 to blank off the number plate illumination.

I have a Royal Artillery MT School training Questionnaire dated 10/1943 which makes reference to a D.M.E. circular no. B.141 of 12/5/1941 requiring immediate action "Fitting of new headlamp mask and removal of dipper switch" All M/C's

Rob van Meel is probably the expert on these various documents. Maybe he even has a copy.

Rich.

[Richard Farrant]

Rich,

I guessed you were refering to m/cycles made prior to war starting, they were often given crude blackouts. From photos there are a number of different types, but i think that once blackout regs. came in to power, then Lucas, or Miller would have produced the masks to replace the normal rim and glass.

As for DME circulars, I do not think many of these survived, they would have been destroyed after a certain period as they would have been included in later editions of technical publications , etc.

Richard

[Jeff Gordon]

Richard, can you please post the entire photo of the WM20
P.S I hope you are looking after those MJCQ cloth patches I gave you at the Overlord show 2004
Jeff

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Jeff Gordon
Richard, can you please post the entire photo of the WM20
P.S I hope you are looking after those MJCQ cloth patches I gave you at the Overlord show 2004
Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Here is the photo in full, sourced from IWM, no. KID 5017.

Still got the patches, thank you! I am sorry, I did not recognise your name on the thread. Hope you had a good trip, seem to remember your group were going on to USA after Normandy. The guys from NSW in the camper van are returning this year for the War & Peace show at Beltring.

Richard

[Jeff Gordon]

G'day Richard, I didn't expect you to remember my name, Yes Dave and I went over to the states and had a ball. Michael and Emiel who were with us are also going to Beltring this year. I am off to the states in three weeks. Definatilly want to get back to the UK and Europe for a better look around one day. Jeff
P.s. Richard do know where I can get some Panniers for a wm20. Not the canvas, just the frames.