Bobcat

[Robert Dabkowski]

As I stated previously, The Base Borden Museum (NO, its NOT being torn down again ... don't panic!) has a prototype vehicle, at least two scale models of proposed varients and several original test reports resulting from on-base testing. And LOTS of photos and "first draft' vehicle manuals.

But you probably know that already.

Robert Dabkowski
Veni, Vidi, Vegi - I came, I saw, I had a salad



P.S. Geoff, I REALLY like that "beating a dead horse" smilie that
you've added.
Not sure about the "rope jumping sheep" but the engineer in
me wants to know more ?

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally posted by Robert Dabkowski

P.S. Geoff, I REALLY like that "beating a dead horse" smilie that
you've added.
Not sure about the "rope jumping sheep" but the engineer in
me wants to know more ?

I'm afraid you'll have to ask the Aussies about the sheep thingie... not sure you'll get a straight answer though!

:dh:

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally posted by Robert Dabkowski
As I stated previously, The Base Borden Museum (NO, its NOT being torn down again ... don't panic!) has a prototype vehicle, at least two scale models of proposed varients and several original test reports resulting from on-base testing. And LOTS of photos and "first draft' vehicle manuals.

Dealing with the Base Borden museum IS like beating a dead horse.
Every time I speak to the retired Colonel who runs the place (Beaton?) he tells me that all documents and photos are in storage and are inaccessible. This is probably so, given the moves that the collections have had to go through but it is frustrating nontheless. I have a person, on base, prepared to go and photocopy/scan anything of interest but I can't get to anything!!

[Bob Moseley (RIP)]

Hi all
At the risk of putting frivolity into this serious thread, the sheep thingie is actually New Zealand oriented. That's what the sheep do in their time off when not socialising with their owners.
Baaahh Bob

[Col Tigwell]

The joke that went around here many years ago.


NZ sheep farmer counting his flock from one paddock to another.


101

102

103

HULLO DARLING

105

106

Not in the best of taste, but I bet all the Aussies have heard it.

Regards

Col Tigwell

[Gunner]

Ah, the Antipodes.... where men are men and sheep are nervous! (note the look in the sheep's eyes! )

Doug/Clive: There used to be several detailed photos of the SP version of the Bobcat in the Ammo and Equipment Wing of the Artillery School. I'm fairly certain there was both a 105mm and a 25 pounder variant.

Cheers! Mike

[servicepub (RIP)]

I am bringing this topic back to the top as I am now desparate for a photo of the XA-20. Is anyone close to Borden who can find out if they have such a beast?
I need a real photo not a low-res scan on the 'net as I will be printing it in an upcoming booklet.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Clive

As per my PM reply, I have sent an email off to my friend in Shilo requesting an image (if he has one).

Also I have utilized the CF Joint Imagery Centre request format to see what they have. They've been good to me in the past but it takes 3-4 weeks to get a disc with any images that are requested. They do not send them electronically.

Best I can do at the moment.

regards
Darrell

[Robert Dabkowski]

... I think ?

If by XA-20 you mean the Bobcat APC varient ??

I saw Base Borden's two weeks ago and am planning to return there (from Toronto) later on this week. Would be happy to take a digital 'snapshot' or two for you or some real 'on film' pictures if that is the vehicle that you want ? Just tell me what angles/views that you would like.

Robert in Toronto

[servicepub (RIP)]

Thanks for the offer. What I am looking for however is a contemporary photo from the trials days. Any idea if Borden holds these in their archives?

[Robert Dabkowski]

When I was volunteering there three years ago I saw a stack of reports on the Bobcat that stood about 24" high but, sadly, I wasn't interested enough at the time to do more than flip thru the top one on the pile.

It was an original (typed) of the field trials report on the Bobcat, done at Borden. Lots of original photos of the vehicle from every angle pasted in but all the backgrounds had been scissored off so no photos of the actual field trials in that report.

However, I can't say what photos were in the other 20 odd reports in that pile. They rarely throw anything out so I would imagine that the "in the field" photos that you want, are there somewhere.

Will check the back stacks for you when I get there.

Borden has finally twigged to the idea that archival photos can be sold to raise funds for the museum so there may be a charge for commercial reproduction rights.

Send me a mobile phone # via pm so that I can call you while am there.

Robert

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Clive

No answer from Shilo yet but CFJIC has answered me asking how I want the pics. They'll be sending me a disc by the end of the week in high-res JPEG format. Unfortunately the earliest I can get that disc is 15 Aug.

I've asked for email attachments of what they find as a preview.

I'll be in touch. Plese let me know if these timelines are acceptable for you or I'm wasting my time. Thanks.

regards
Darrell

[servicepub (RIP)]

Darrell,
15 Aug is fine with me. This publication is still a few months away so there is no rush. I was at the Image Centre just two weeks ago looking at other stuff and never thought to look up this beast.

Robert
Just in case the Image Centre sends photos of a trial knife-fork-spoon combo that was termed an XA-20, I will PM you my cell number.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Clive

I'm sorry to say it but I have received an email from CFJIC and they have no XA-20 images. Apparently the confusion was in their asking me how I wanted the images if they found some.

They mentioned they had plenty of Bobcat pics but as I read you wanted specific XA-20 pics, I cancelled my request.

Sorry to have raised your hopes. Maybe you can see them yourself and review their Bobcat pics for a chance of seeing some XA-20 mixed in?

Still no word from Shilo yet. I think he may be on holiday.

regards
Darrell

[Petrus]

Here you've got a drawing (dated 1955) of an 'initial concept' of the Bobcat. It resembles what is known as the XA-20, but its engine is located in the middle and the troop compartment in the rear.

Piotr

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Petrus

Thanks for that.

I recently bought this small (9cm x 6cm) photo loose in a large pile of wholy un-related photos at a gun show.

Note that there is a registration number (76-735) painted on the side and perhaps weights on the roof.

regards
Darrell

[rob love]

Odd that it would be using the old DND numbering system as opposed to the CAR (later CFR) system which cam out around 1950. That DND number would seem to be around the numbers for the armoured snowmobiles.

[Ed Storey]

The photograph does illustrate an Armoured Snowmobile.



This is a Bobcat.

[Darrell Zinck]

Rob

It is indeed an armoured snowmobile. I didn't claim otherewise but see that I neglected to put it in my post.

Thanks, Ed. Probably not weights then.

regards
Darrell

[Bob Phillips]

So while this post has been revived and there are so many well informed members contributing let me ask a question..following the success of Canadian industries in WW2 in successfully building all manner of vehicles there seems to have been a mindset in our 1950s military that we could/should be developing a new generation of vehicles.
The armored snowmobile/penguin led to the Mudcat, the Beaver and the Wapiti. At least the Mudcat & Beaver were deemed useful vehicles, but tghey apppear to have quickly died in infancy. In my research it seems there was a hope to develop export markets for some of these vehicles as well as use them in our northlands. Was this just a deluded dream? The monies expended were huge ( though apparently much less than comparable US developed vehicles)
the Wapiti program beginning 1949 and cancelled 1954 after 3 prototypes built cost ( as previously reported ) $1.25 million 1952 dollars. The engines alone were $8000 each!! The Wapiti was reportedly cancelled as it was too big to be air transported- which seems odd since the later Bobcat was to be airportable in a 105mm gun version.
This was also the era of the Avro Arrow etc etc Anyone like to speculate on why there was so much money available for R&D when so much of that technology went right down the drain??

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Bob Phillips

The Wapiti was reportedly cancelled as it was too big to be air transported- which seems odd since the later Bobcat was to be airportable in a 105mm gun version.

Perhaps the answer is one word: Hercules. US production started in 1956 and introduced to the RCAF in 1960.

I mentioned early in this thread that I talked with the EME Col Commandant about the Bobcat. He was part of the project towards the end, and pulled the plug on the project. Apparently they were rife with problems. Personally, I'm glad we ended up with the M113 family of vehicles, some of which are still serving today after 50 years of service. I think a limited production of the Bobcat, had it been brought to fruition, would have just left us with an orphan as the US vehicle would have dominated the market in the free world.

We can take some satisfaction in the LAV series of vehicles, although the lineage goes back to Europe. I think that series have now become the standard in the free world.

[Bob Phillips]

Good point Rob,
so do I conclude that Canadas military brass had an overly high opinion of their capability following the success of Canadian industrial production in WW2?
No one could argue with the success of the M113..but the implication of all this is that the Canadian taxpayer got royally screwed by poor decision making in the 1950s.
Second, was there a realistic hope for Canadian designed vehicles on a world market if they had been more readily produced and marketed ( esp types like the Mudcat & Beaver rather than more obscure design such as Bobcat APCs) ?
The M series trucks we built in the 1950s were all of US design, anyone know if other Canadian options were considered?

[Bob Phillips]

Sorry- Charlie F. has revived the Wapiti thread where I quote engines at $6000 each not $8000. However in 1950s dollars how many houses could you buy with $6000- I am guessing maybe 2 average homes? Still very expensive

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Bob Phillips

Good point Rob,
so do I conclude that Canadas military brass had an overly high opinion of their capability following the success of Canadian industrial production in WW2?
No one could argue with the success of the M113..but the implication of all this is that the Canadian taxpayer got royally screwed by poor decision making in the 1950s.

I don't know about royally screwed and poor decision making. For every winner there has to be some losers.....taking on the US with it's influence, industrial capability, design capability, influence, and influence is a tough battle. Since our domestic needs are so small, the production of a Canadian designed vehicle would only be a few thousand for us, and then possible foreign sales. For a US vehicle, their domestic needs would result in a much lower cost, and then it would be on the world market with a product that would be priced far below what we could offer.

The numbers would never be in our favor.

[Colin Alford]

About 20 seconds of Bobcat footage can be found in this video on YouTube starting at the 57 second mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrNv0QOqPf8