Bobcat

[Darrell Zinck]

Could someone please direct me to or post pics of the post WW2 Bobcat APC and it's possible variants and further developments?

Thanx in advance.
regards
Darrell

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally posted by Darrell Zinck
Could someone please direct me to or post pics of the post WW2 Bobcat APC and it's possible variants and further developments?

AFAIK, the only one still existing is the one at the Base Borden Museum, near Barrie, Ontario.

Also, AFAIK, there were neither variants nor further developments.

Suggest you go "Google"(or other engines) and do the usual search methods.

Regards

[Darrell Zinck]

Thank you Sir.

I was previously aware of the Borden veh.
http://www.eagle.ca/~harry/vehicles/...obcat%20APC%20(prototype)

Also google turns up very little (even google.ca).

I have since found out about a predecessor of the Bobcat called the XA-20 but have found only a few pics of her and zero info.

I'll keep looking but thank you for reply.

regards
Darrell

[rob love]

In the RCEME recovery maual from around that period (I think it's 1964 dated) it shows the Bobcat as the Cdn Forces APC; they were that sure they were going to get it.
I talked to Col Murray Johnstone (who was the honourary col for the EME trades for the last couple decades) on the Bobcat subject. He was involved in the project around the time it was cancelled. Apparently it was quite an albatross. With that big flat plate on the front, it's a miracle they didn't just paint a roundel target on there.
There was an army journal out a year or two ago which showed some proposed variations like 105 SP and I'm pretty sure an equipment book from the 60s (I think the title was New Equipment to the Cdn Army, or something along that line) also showed one with some radar gizmo mounted on it.
I'll check the basement library and see what I might have.

[Gunner]

Hi Guys:

Back in the 70's the Equipment Wing of the Artillery School had a series of large photos on the wall depicting the Bobcat with both the 25 pounder and the 105 C1 (M114 in US talk) mounted. The 25 pounder was likely to drum up sales in Africa as we were hoping to sell the Bobcat to the Tanzanians or Tanganyikans (I'm working off old memories here).

The radar equipped version was also depicted and was a Cymbaline counter mortar radar (at one time Canada had a very robust "over the horizon" target acquisition capability that was eroded away in the 70s and 80s).

The big flat nose not withstanding, the Bobcat was very avant-guarde for its day... it was seen as a truly 'universal carrier' that could fill a multitude of roles. The Ram tank style machine gun cupola was an interesting anachronism that time and experience has re-confirmed... we are armouring all our exposed machine guns nowadays!

As a kid, one of my favourite toys was a huge (to my small eyes) GI Joe/Action Man APC model that came with a removable artillery piece and a mine roller for the front. It was about 20 inches long and, you guessed it, it was a model of the Bobcat! It is still available on the antique GI Joe collectors' market but fetches several hundred dollors if you can find one in good order with all the accessories.

I've often wondered if there was a connection between the Bobcat, the XA-20 and the Cambridge Carrier we have at the Swords and Ploughshares Museum.

Cheers, Mike

[rob love]

So after a trip to the basement I can further refine the info I gave above. The RCEME maual us CAMT 11-4; Recovery technique dated 1962. The Bobcat is shown on Page 223.
The omtherlode of information is contained in The army Doctrine and Training Bulletin Vol4 #4 from winter 1999. In an article called The future of the Armoured Corps and the combined armed team, on p. 83, There is a couple of pages on the Bobcat and it's proposed variants. Three unarmoured prototypes were made in 58, two APCs and one SP 105 gun variant. These were followed by six prototypes.
The article has drawings of the following proposed variants; Bobcat Atomic Fire support vehicle (Bobcat APC mounting Davy Crockett nuclear delivery system)
Bobcat Light Recce Tank( Bobcat with Saladin 76mm turret with SS11 missiles turret mounted)
A photo also shows a Cadillac Gage V150 with DND plates. Apparently the V100 was tested in 64, and the 150 was a contender in the AVGP competition.
The aricle was written by Major Stephen J Bowes, an armoured officer affiliated with 12 RBC. Check the coffee tableds of the unit orderely rooms or the Base dental clinics; a copy is bound to turn up.

[Gunner]

Hi Rob:

I guess it was the baby brother to the Honest John! I've gotta see that picture! Can you scan it?

Cheers, MIke

[rob love]

Sorry, no can do. My 13 year old daughter absconded with my scanner for her computer. It would be easy to mock one up on photoshop; Just paste an oversize RPG onto the top of a bobcat.

[rob love]

One last opinion on the subject, and just so no-one takes Mike's points on the Bobcat as meaning we were onto something with this vehicle, It was a LEMON. It would continually fail in the 2000 mile tests it was subjected to, including the developement of fist size holes in the armour.

If anyone wants first hand info on this vehicle, Col (retd) Johnston really is the guy to talk to. Someone really should get him to write an article on this (failed) piece of Canadiana before it is too late.
Mike; I think he's from your neck of the woods. How about adding another project to your (I am sure full) schedule

[Darrell Zinck]

Rob and Mike
Thank you both for the replys. As I see it the XA-20 was the leaner, simpler, less armoured progeny of the BOBCAT.

Yes, I'm aware the whole project was a Lemon as were the flamethrower and AT Misssle we were developing domestically at the time.

It's interesting to see the different prototypes mentioned and how sure the RCEME was it was coming by doing up manuals.

I'm off to Base Dental and the OR!!!

regards
Darrell

[Robert Dabkowski]

Darrel, be sure to visit the Base Borden Museum and ask them for a look at the manuals and evaluation test reports. They have the originals of all of it related to the Bobcat. I sorted them all out three years ago while going thru the museum collections. Robert

[Darrell Zinck]

Hallo Robert

I'm not likely to be near Borden any time soon but it's good to know they're there. I'm still trying to locate that "army Doctrine and Training Bulletin Vol4 #4 from winter 1999".

Thanks for the tip.

regards
Darrell

[Gunner]

Hi Darrell:

Where did you find the photo of the XA-20? Are there more? Can you post them or send a URL? Questions, questions

Cheers, Mike

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Mike

I thought I sent you a PM with the link!!

Or maybe it was thru DWAN.

have you been in to work recently to check your email. If you won't be, let me know and I'll post the link here.

regards
Darrell

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally posted by Darrell Zinck
Hi Mike

I thought I sent you a PM with the link!!

Or maybe it was thru DWAN.

have you been in to work recently to check your email. If you won't be, let me know and I'll post the link here.

regards
Darrell

Hmmm...using DWAN to post personal PMs and other links.

Perhaps CSIS or DISO should look into this.

[herr-pear]

From "The Worlds Armored Fighting Vehicles" by Dr. F.M. Von Senger und Etterlin, C 1960. There is one more pic and 4-view scale drawings in the book.

[herr-pear]

Bobcat pic failed to attach....trying again

[Petrus]

Here you've got what Mr Von Senger und Etterlin wrote about the Bobcat (note remarks on its planned variants) as well as drawings from the book (sorry for poor quality of the scans).

Regards,
Piotr

[Petrus]

And now here is an excerpt from an article about the Bobcat by Fred Olsen (does anybody here know him?). A long time ago the article was available on the Internet, but a site where it was at does not exist anymore. What I have chosen here is about the Bobcat's origins, esp. its predecessors in a form of the XA20 and the XA92.

By the way, do you have any idea how the XA20 was to be deployed in combat? I wonder who was to be its crew and who was to dismount to fight. A role of the driver is obvious, but what about the gunner - was he the section leader? Was he to remain in the vehicle in battle or dismount with the rest of the section, etc.?

Best regards anyway,
Piotr

The 'BOBCAT' as this vehicle came to be known,was conceived as an infantry carrier. There were two versions; XA20 (pic. 1) and XA92. The XA20 was to be made solely for infantry purposes. The XA92 was to be a weapons carrier. It was also to be built in an unarmored cargo carrier version.

As you can see from this drawing (pic. 2), an infantry section would only use this vehicle to transport to the site of the fight. Once in the area they would disembark and proceed on foot. The exterior sides of the vehicle were configured in a shelf-like fashion to hold heavy weapons and equipment.

The Army actually built a test vehicle of this ungainly beast. The high angle of attack would be drastically reduced when the armoured body was attached. (pic. 3)

Once the basic concept had been proven the Army then built a prototype. (pic. 4)

Low ground pressure and ease of maintenance were the selling features. One man was supposed to be able to replace a track section in 8 minutes.

(pics. 5, 6, 7)

This project was doomed!!! The test establishment continued with the work on this vehicle,but the XA92 was to be the vehicle chosen to deliver the goods ,so to speak.

The XA92 was to become the 'BOBCAT'. It was determined that all tracked,amphibious vehicle requirements for the Canadian Army could be built on a basic chassis. From the sponson line down all vehicles would be the same. (pic. 8)

The vehicle shown above has a forward compartment added to the basic chassis. All models would have a crew compartment separated from the main compartment by a bulk head that would have a door or hatchway into the main compartment,with the exception of the personnel carrier. (pic. 9)

This is an actual photo of an early model of the Bobcat. The main problems with this vehicle were the heavy engine door that required more than one person to open and close,making daily engine maintenance very difficult. The upper hatch was also a swing open affair that was exceedingly awkward to operate.

(pic. 10)
The second concept vehicle was a Self-propelled gun. The basic C1 105mm was mounted on the vehicle.
In keeping with the whole vehicle program concept,this vehicle,with it's superstructure added could, and did, swim.

The following pictures were with the article (the captions are mostly original:


pic. 1 - XA20


pic. 2 - 9-man seating arrangement


pic. 3 - Mobile test rig


pic. 4 - Ugly little thing isn't it?


pic. 5


pic. 6


pic. 7
Pre-production model


pic. 8 - Concept Model of basic chassis


pic. 9 - Pre-production Model


pic. 10 - 105mm Howitzer mounted on the basic chassis

[Gunner]

Wow: Our cups runneth over. Great data, thanks guys!

Pronto: Research for service papers- no guilt in using DWAN!

Cheers! Mike

[Jon Skagfeld]

Originally posted by Petrus
Fred Olsen (does anybody here know him?).

Reference Fred Olsen...he was involved in the Base Borden Museum as, I think, assistant curator.

He gave many MLUers a back door entrance to some of the ongoing restoration projects which were not available to the public.

He disappeared from the radar screen about...six, seven years ago, I think.

[Robert Dabkowski]

I bumped into him many times while volunteering at the Borden museum 3 years ago and I know that he was helping out there still, as of two years ago. He had just retired from the Forces and was living in Angus, a small village just outside the base's north gate. There were several e-mail exchanges between Fred, myself and Fred's son who was in the Forces and posted to Base Petawawa regarding parts for a Staghound restoration but when his son shipped out overseas Fred just disappeared. I believe there were some family/health problems but I have no further contact info for him. Robert in Toronto

[Petrus]

As for the XA20, does anybody here know its specification?

Regards anyway,
Piotr

[Darrell Zinck]

Rob Love and the rest

I have in my possesion "The Army Training and Doctrine Bulletin" Vol2 No.4 Winter 99.

I offered it to Petrus but will scan the pics for you tonite, Mike.

regards
A

[rob love]

Darrell:
Volume 2 is correct. Sorry for the typo; it must have made the search that much more difficult. So where did you find a copy finally? Does it have the info you were looking for?

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Rob
The typo was not a problem but rather just finding a copy going that far back. I got it from our very own unit library but only after a new librarian sorted things a bit ("dusted-off" more likely).

Very good reading on the (then) future armoured corps as well.

Here's the best pics. Damn interesting articles about the "Future" Armoured Corps, as seen in 1999. To look now just 6 years later!!! Well.........................like I said, interesting. :

regards
D

[Darrell Zinck]

No.1

[Darrell Zinck]

No.2

[Darrell Zinck]

No.3

[servicepub (RIP)]

Service Publications will be publishing a "Weapons of War" booklet on the Bobcat in the future. The author, Doug Knight, has already written several titles in the series, notably the Land Mattress and the 6- and 25-pdr books.
Doug has access to the original files at DHH and at Archives. However, any information, photos, sources, etc... will be gratefully received.
Clive