Need Information

[Michel D]

Hello i just finish restoring a 1954 Dodge M37 .
I was going to plate it for the road but thay said to me at the SAAQ that the truck is not listed in the data base. No one has plated the truck since it was realeased from the army thay say y need to find the first owner of the truck.
I have found the first owner but He past away 10 years ago. If some one no wath i could do to plate the truck leave me a message.

[peter simundson]

They just make it as hard as possible. You need to get a signed affidavit you are the sole owner of the vehicle and get it notarized by a lawyer. You also will probably have to get an appraisal of the vehicle to pay tax.
It should look as bad as possible when he appraises it.
Some kind of bill of sale from the person you bought it from wouldn't hurt.

Attached is the appraisal form that is accepted here.

Good luck Peter Simundson

[chris vickery]

And if the PRs in QC still give you a hard time, maybe get a friend to register it in Ontario and transfer it after in QC.
Peter, I know your suggestion works in Ontario but the folks over in La belle province have slightly different criteria and make it difficult.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by peter simundson

They just make it as hard as possible. You need to get a signed affidavit you are the sole owner of the vehicle and get it notarized by a lawyer. You also will probably have to get an appraisal of the vehicle to pay tax.
It should look as bad as possible when he appraises it.
Some kind of bill of sale from the person you bought it from wouldn't hurt.

Attached is the appraisal form that is accepted here.

Good luck Peter Simundson

Ah yes, difficulties in Quebec. The lawyers handle criminal law; notaries handle most property law. Different, but it might be easier. But I like your idea of getting it registered out of province then transferred to Quebec. For what it's worth, I can almost see Gatineau from my rooftop.

[matthewq4b]

Just a question but what if you had bought the truck from out of province, wouldn't you just need a Bill of sale from a previous owner ? And what if it was from a province like Alberta were a bill of sale could be written on anything and not necessarily a Gov't issued Document ?

Would that not satisfy the bureaucrats at SAAQ ?


In Alberta the Gov't issued registration (pink card) technically is not proof of legal ownership it is just proof of registration.

Those of us from Alberta look at your Vehicle Pink Cards NO where on them does it mention registered owner or ownership.

So a bill of sale from Alberta will technically not have any Gov't issued proof of ownership either for you or from the former owner.

Even if the bill of sale is on the detachable part of the pink card, that part of the pink card is technically not legal proof of the ownership of the former registrar it is just proof that the vehicle was registered in that former persons name.
By them signing it and using it as bill of sale they are then legally stating they are legal owner.
But the card proper is not proof of that.

But the catch is you can not get the registration (the pink card) with out providing proof of ownership (bill of sale) and proof of insurance, while legally the pink card is not proof of ownership you have to have a bill of sale (proof of legal ownership) to get the pink card, And only the legal owner of vehicle can insure it in Alberta.

There technically is no Gov't method in place in Alberta to track legal ownership of vehicles it is just assumed by Motor Vehicles and the law that the vehicle registration is held by the legal owner since they have to produce proof of ownership (bill of sale) and proof of Insurance to get registration and only the legal owner of a vehicle can obtain vehicle insurance in Alberta.

You can register a vehicle in your name in Alberta even if you do not own it.
Only the legal owner can insure a vehicle as per Alberta Law. If you are registering a vehicle you do no own, the legal owner will insure the vehicle.
When the vehicle is registered since you have no bill of sale the registration will be in your name and the legal owner (who ever got the insurance policy) will be on the registration, as you have to have insurance to get registration, and not always is the insurers name actually on the registration pink card it just depnds on how the clerk decides to enter it. The name of the insurer will be in the Motor Vehicles database regardless of what is on the pink card.
You then will be the primary registrar and your drivers licence number will be attached to the registration and the plate and not the legal owner (insurer).

So it is perfectly legal in Alberta to have insurance papers in one persons name and the registration in another persons name on the same vehicle. (been there done that)
So just cause a persons name is on the pink registration card it does not necessarily mean they actually own the vehicle in Alberta.


Once the registration lapses (after one year) and is not renewed the old registration (pink Card) does not provide proof of ownership it just tells who the vehicle was last registered to. There is no method in Alberta to get a Pink Card ( for proof ownership) from Motor Vehicles if the vehicle is not insured and registered for road use.

I know in Ontario you can get a Permit from Motor Vehicles providing you with proof of vehicle ownership even if the vehicle is not on the road. In Alberta there is no such option available.

So since Alberta has no vehicle titles, ownership permits, etc so to speak and no Gov't tracking of vehicle ownership. If a vehicle changes hands a couple times from the last person that registered the vehicle for road use , while never being put back on the road in the intern a Bill of sale then becomes the legal proof of ownership.

A bill of sale in Alberta can be written on any thing and just has to include the Buyers Name , Vehicle VIN/serial number ,description (what it is with year), Sellers Name and signature (the legal owner) , the amount it was sold for and the date of the sale.

That is all the law requires here to legally transfer ownership, and it is all the insurance companies and Motor Vehicles needs to plate register and insure a vehicle in your name.

So say you had bought the truck from an individual in Alberta and the former legal owner never put it on the road during their tenure of ownership, all you could possibly get from them is a bill of sale written on what ever they decided to write it on.

SAAQ then would sort have to accept the bill of sale from the former owner as that is all the documentation you could provide them with and all the documentation the former owner was legally required to give you, or even able to give you. You would then have legally purchased the vehicle and transferred ownership under the laws of Alberta where the purchase was made.

They reasonably could not expect you to provide Alberta provincial issued proof of ownership as it was not available or required where the vehicle was purchased.

This is just some FYI to use as you see fit and for future use in case you buy a vehicle from Alberta that the former owner never registered for road use.



Matthew

[matthewq4b]

Here is the closest thing Alberta has to a Motor Vehicle legal transfer of ownership.

And all it is a bill of sale.

http://www.servicealberta.gov.ab.ca/...aleReg3126.pdf


This is right from the Service Alberta Website. And even they have a disclamer at the bottom for it. lol

I'm curious as to what the folks at SAAQ would say if you showed up with the "Offical" Alberta Transfer of Vehicle Ownership ( bill of sale) Document filled out.


Matthew

[cletrac (RIP)]

Saskatchewan's change of ownership is basically the same as Alberta's. Scribble a bill of sale on a paper towel or whatever's handy and that's it. When you register it you show the bill of sale and buy your plates including insurance. It the vehicle isn't already on their computer ( not registered for about 35 years or out of province) then it needs to have a safety done on it. They don't even record who you bought it from.

[chris vickery]

OK, here goes.

In Ontario, to transfer a vehicle you need to have a bill of sale indicating to whom, from whom, how much etc. As well as this, you require the vehicle ownership, signed, dated and filled out with the purchaser info.
Now, here is the kicker. If the vehicle is over 20 years in age, you also require an appraisal from a certified, recognized appraiser to confirm the vehicles value. We pay tax on the higher of the two values, either appraised or bill of sale. Pay 13% HST plus $10 transfer

If it is less than 20 years old, the Ministry of Transportation has book value on file, once again, it is the higher value, either book or bill of sale. Pay 13%HST plus 10$ transfer.

We also get dinged $20 on a Used Vehicle Information package, which confirms all previous in province owners, without this they will not re-register to your name.

Now, if the vehicle has never been registered (many mv type vehs), there is technically no ownership. They need to create one. You need a bill of sale, an appraisal and an affidavit attesting that all the info presented is true and to the best of your knowledge. You pay x$ for the affidavit, so much for the new ownership, 13% HST based on the appraisal or the bill of sale. Of course you need to pay the appraisers fee. Next comes down to convincing the MTO as to what category the veh should be registered as (think ferret or other oddball mv)

The crazy part in all this is that value is deemed by one of two things; book value for vehs less than 20 years or appraised value regardless of appraisal unless the bill of sale indicates a higher value paid for vehs 20 and over.
For enthusiasts, here is a scenario. Suppose you purchase a rolling wreck?
You simply want it registered in your name;
-affidavit
-ownership creation fee
-13%HST on determined value
-fees for appraisal
Maybe you say, no, I will restore it first and then register- BAD MOVE
you will pay all the formentioned but now, 13% HST on the HIGHER value. You just paid HST on all the parts and labour and you will pay again on the newly appraised value.

I understand that it seems stupid to have to have a wreck appraised but here in ontario that is how it works. Unfortunately what was happening was that guys were writing undervalued receipts for unfit vehicles, registering them one day as unfit based on the lowballed value and then going in the next day with a safety certification and transferring the vehcile into a fit, plated status. The gov't caught on and now here we are.

Confused yet????

[Mike Baker]

In BC there is a Transfer/Tax form to fill out, and if you don't have the previous registration certificate then you are in for a BIG headache. I bought my M38A1 last year from the widow of the previous owner, who had let the registration lapse around 1989 and then left in it the back of his shop for 21 years (until he died unexpectedly in a car accident). She didn't have the previous registration, (which it later turned out was in the name of a defunct company he owned) and even though ICBC accepted that he was dead and that she had inherited his estate, that wasn't good enough. The widow had to get her lawyer to establish that her husband had owned the truck (and of course ICBC wouldn't simply tell us who it was previously registered to because of the Privacy Act), then it had to be transferred into her name (and the appropriate fees paid) before she could transfer it to me with the proper registration certificate (at which point I had to pay the fees again as well as sales tax!). All of that took 11 months, at which point I had valid license plates and insurance for a vehicle which hadn't been on the road in 22 years, and didn't even have working brakes. But I paid the fees and the tax, so it was perfectly legal to drive it!

Long story short, avoid registering anything in BC.

Mike

[matthewq4b]

Ya it seems that Alberta Sask and possibly Man (have no idea about Man) Motor Vehicles have basically washed thier hands of tracking ownership and are leaving it up to the purchasing individual to insure they are buying the vehicle from the legal owner and that there are no leins on it.

If you do buy a vehicle in Alberta then registered a vehicle that has a lein on it. So sad to bad, you failed to do your due diligence to insure it was free and clear when you bought it.

Any issues in regards to legal ownership become a civil or criminal matter for the courts and or the RCMP/Local PD to resolve. This helps keep the operating cost of Motor Vehicles as low as possible and the prosses of vehicle registration as quick and efficaint as it reasonably can be, thus keeping operating costs down and thus saving tax dollars.

Anybody can make something complicated and fortunetly there are still a couple provinces in the country that keep things as simple as possible when it comes to vehicle registration.

This fortunetly does work out for individuals trying to register old and oddball vehicles in some of the other provinces.

As some Provinces Motor Vehicle Depts will see an Alberta Bill of sale and run with that and ask for no other documentation as they know they are not likly going get anything else but that piece of paper. They can not exactly ask for a title or permit of ownership or registration of ownership as Alberta does not issue any of those.

The same rules apply to Alberta as Sask for Provincial inspections, a vehicle that has never been registered in Alberta previosly or was last registered out of province or it has been so many years since it was last registered in Alberta it has rolled out of the system, the vehicle must have an out province inspection before registration will be issued.
After that it will never need another provincial inspection ever.
Unless the registration again laspes for so long it rolls off the system.

So additonally there is no record of inspection on a vehicles history with Motor Vehicals unless it was required to have an out of province inspection.

But we do not suffer the serious corrsion issues here as some of the other provinces and do not have near the number of vehciles on the road.


The insurance company's here may request a superficial road worthyness inspection once a vehicle hits ten to 12 year old and it is being newly insured with that carrier.

My uncles truck (an 89 F250) has been continously registered and insured in Alberta since new. Just last year after hitting 21 years old and never have been inspected his insurance company asked if he would not mind getting it inspected.
This was not even a demand but an optional request to keep it in a lower insurance bracket as opposed to not being inspected.


Matthew

[Michel D]

Thanks for all your help! I will try to plate the truck as soon as possible.

[Grant Bowker]

A PDF version of the form Peter put up earlier is attached, hopefully someone will be able to use the form or at least use it as a model if it suits the legal process in your area. If you find transcription errors in the file, please let me know so I can adjust it.

Peter, you also made reference to an appraisal form that was accepted in your area. If you think it is likely to be of use to others, can you send me a copy that can be posted similar to the affadavit form?

[Grant Bowker]

The Ontario appraisal form that Peter referred to can be found at:
http://www.rev.gov.on.ca/en/forms/rst/pdf/1159.pdf
The french version is at:
http://www.rev.gov.on.ca/fr/forms/rst/pdf/1159.pdf
In case you can't get the links to work for you a copy is attached.
The form can be completed on computer, then printed if you wish. One gotcha that I noticed is that they want the appraisal done within 60 days of purchase, so don't delay until you are ready to move on to licensing to get an appraisal. Otherwise you might have to sell to a friend and then repurchase it for the same value just to have a recently dated bill of sale to be able to get an appraisal. Seems crazy.