identify this...

[luc désormeaux]

Anybody know something about this Crusader based vehicle ?
The legend of the picture said :
9th CAN INF BTN, 23th Field Ambulance Rgt, Creully France,June 27th 1944

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by luc désormeaux
Anybody know something about this Crusader based vehicle ?

Luc, I've also wondered What kind of gun tractor? this is...

Hanno

[Chris Wilcox]

Salut Luc,

Je pense qu'il est un Crusader Gun Tractor avec le 'Deep Wading' de la 6ieme regiment anti-char du II Canadian Corps. Voici le 17 pdr a derriere. Si vous voulez a acheter un maquette de cet vehicule, contactez Accurate Armour ou Legend.

Pardonez mon pauvre Francais.

[luc désormeaux]

Thank you both of you for those info. So it was really use by canadian forces in Europe?
This may be a very nice looking model to build...

BTW Chris..You're french is very good !!
Cheers,

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by luc désormeaux
So it was really use by canadian forces in Europe?

According to John in What kind of gun tractor?, only one Canadian unit used the Crusader Gun Tractor:

Originally posted by John McGillivray
The Crusader II, Gun Tractor Mk I, shown in the pictures most likely belongs to a British unit. When 3rd Cdn Inf. Div. landed in Normandy it was part of the British 1st Corps. The anti-tank unit of 1st British Corps was the 62nd Anti-tank Regt RA. I believe that part of this unit landed on Juno beach and was supporting 3rd Cdn Div during June.

The only Canadian unit to use the Crusader II, Gun Tracter Mk. I was the 5th A/T Regt. of the 4th CAD. This unit only landed in Normandy in late July.

Also note that the 7th Cdn A/t Regt and the 1st Cdn Corps were serving in Italy at the Time.

BTW, the only known surviving Crusader Gun Tractor is in the National War and Resistance Museum in Overloon (Netherlands).

HTH,
Hanno

[servicepub (RIP)]

According to the CMHQ Reports (#141 - Situation of the Canadian Military Forces Overseas. Progress in Equipment Jan-Dec 44.)

42. The question of a tower for the gun received considerable attention. Within 21 Army Group the policy was adopted of fitting all tanks with 17-pr towing books for emergency use (ibid: B.G.S., C.M.H.Q. to D.Q.M.Q., C.M.H.Q., 21 Dec 43). In March 1944 it was intended to use entirely wheeled vehicles as standard towers, probably the American 2½-ton 6 x 6 lorry (ibid. Chief of Staff, C.M.H.Q. to Under-Secretary of State, War Office, 4 Mar 44). These were found not to be available, and various vehicles were used. 6 Cdn A Tk Regt of 2 Cdn Corps used modified Ram tanks specially for this purpose. In Italy the anti-tank regiments of 5 Cdn Armd Div and 1 Cdn Corps used modified Crusader tanks. Other units used the Field Artillery Tractor (C.M.H.Q. file 1/SP 17-Pdr/1: S.D. (E), C.M.H.Q. to S.D. (M.T.), C.M.H.Q., 8 Jun 44; Cdn Ops in N.W.E. series 6, p.4). Half-Tracks were also used.

43. Besides the towed 17-pr anti-tank gun, two types of self-propelled 17-pr anti-tank gun were introduced during the year. In April 3-in M 10 self-propelled equipments were being modified to mount 17-pr guns (C.M.H.Q. file 1/SP 17-Pdr/1: Chief of Staff, C.M.H.Q. to H.Q. First Cdn Army, 21 Apr 44). In June twenty-four of these were issued to 5 Cdn A Tk Regt of 4 Cdn Armd Div in place of the 3-in M 10 equipment which had been held as an interim measure (C.M.H.Q. file 13/Equip States/1/7: Equipment State, Cdn Army in U.K. as at 30 Jun 44). At the end of June three more were issued to Canadian Reinforcement Units for training (C.M.H.Q. file 1/SP 17-Pdr/1: Director Royal Artillery, War Office to C.M.H.Q., 29 Jun 44; D.C.G.S., C.M.H.Q. to D.Q.M.G., C.M.H.Q., 13 Jul 44). In August the policy was adopted of equipping infantry divisional anti-tank regiments on the following basis (ibid: Extract from Eqpt Policy Memorandum, First Cdn Army, 3 Aug 44, S.D., First Cdn Army to C.M.H.Q. 6 Aug 44):
1 tp in each bty with 6-pr towed - total 16 guns.
1 tp in each bty with 17-pr towed - total 16 guns.
1 tp in each bty with 17-pr Valentine SP - total 16 guns.
None of the Valentine self-propelled equipments had been received by the Canadian forces at the end of November.

44. The 17-pr anti-tank gun proved very effective in operations. But there was a definite preference for self-propelled guns. The towed gun was hard to move and a tracked tower was often necessary. The Ram Tower was reported to be the best available, but was noisy and bulky (Cdn Ops in Med Area, series 25, p. 3; series 28, p. 2; Cdn Ops in N.W.E., series 12, pp 5-6). 6 Cdn A Tk Regt were to change to Crusader towers.

I will soon publish "Tools of the Trade" which will be a compilation of the four war-time CMHQ reports on equipment. This book will run 128 pages and will include 156 photos.

[John McGillivray]

The CMHQ Reports contain a number of errors. This reference to the 5CAD using Crusader gun tractors is one of them. It should have been the 5th A/T Regt and not the 5th Canadian Armoured Division.

The 4th A/T Regt which was a part of 5CAD used a mix of vehicles to tow their 17 pdr including halftracks, 2 ½ ton GMC’s, FAT's etc depending on what they inherited from the British 7th Armoured Division or what they could get their hands on in Italy; but no Crusaders.

Also 6th A/T Regt retained their Ram gun towers until the end of the war and did not convert to Crusaders.

Source “The Gunners of Canada” by G.W.L. Nicholson.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
The CMHQ Reports contain a number of errors.

Source “The Gunners of Canada” by G.W.L. Nicholson.

John;

There are also a number of errors in “The Gunners of Canada”, both volumes.

Cheers

[John McGillivray]

Hello Mark,

Unfortunately the sad point is that one would be hard pressed to find a reference or a book that dose not contain some errors.

Anyways, I went back to the “Gunners of Canada” and I did find a reference to the 7th A/T Regt using Crusaders in NWE in April 1945 as followers:

“For a week during the fighting for Arnhem, three batteries of Lt.-Col. George Hutchison's 7th Anti-Tank Regiment, minus their S.P.'s, 17-pounders and Crusader towers, found themselves committed to an infantry role, manning the east bank of the Ijssel about Westervoort. Later they moved onto the "island," to continue their holding role, under command of the 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade.” (p430)

The question now is did the 7th A/T Regt have the Crusaders in Italy, or did they receive them only after their move to NWE.

John

[klambie]

I'd suggest that you have to take all 'comprehensive' sources with a grain of salt on such matters unless you're sure they've gone back to primary information for all units.

I've done some basic research with the War Diary of 6 A/Tk and after receiving Ram towers in mid-May of 44, it notes that they received 4 Crusaders on 27 Aug 44. Two were assigned to each of the towed bty's (74th and 103rd). Incidentally, they received their first 12 17 pdr SP's (assigned 6 each to 33rd and 56th bty's) the previous day.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by klambie
I've done some basic research with the War Diary of 6 A/Tk and after receiving Ram towers in mid-May of 44, it notes that they received 4 Crusaders on 27 Aug 44. Two were assigned to each of the towed bty's (74th and 103rd). Incidentally, they received their first 12 17 pdr SP's (assigned 6 each to 33rd and 56th bty's) the previous day.

After reading what Kevin found in the War Diary of the 6th A/Tk, and after doing some further research and digging, I'd have to say that the vehicle pictured belongs to the 73rd Anti-Tank Regiment, R.A.(TA), British XXX Corps Troops, whose 198th and 234th A/Tk Btys were under command of the British 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division during the assault phase in Normandy.

The battery quarter above the AoS is not that of either the Canadian 74th or 103rd A/Tk Btys and taking into account the fact that the 73rd A/Tk Regt, RA used the figure '2' on their AoS marking (XXX Corps Troops A/Tk Regt), I'd have to say that its a vehicle of the British 73rd A/Tk Regt, RA (TA).

Cheers

[Bill Alexander]

From the history of the 6 A/T Regt:
(Circa Aug 22-Sept 9th, page 24 of the history)
The unit was also issued with 4 Crusader Towers to replace the same number of Rams and it was indicated that the long-term policy might be Crusaders throughout for Rams. The Crusaders, however, while a reasonably good veh, were found to be very difficult to maintain and to keep supplied with spare parts. Thus it was latter recommended by the Tech Offr that they be replaced with the familiar Rams and this was done. No further issues of Crusaders were made to the Regt.

[klambie]

Bill,

Can I ask where you tracked down the copy of the unit history? Would like to find one, but have only ever seen it in the library.

[Bill Alexander]

Hi Kevin, I bought it through a classified advertisement in the Legion magazine about 13 years ago. It was a reprinted edition of the "Dutch" histories that every unit was ordered to prepare while they waited for repatriation in the summer of 1945. Of interest, the unit had already been disbanded on June 24, 1945.
I would suggest that you check at abe books.