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  #1  
Old 04-09-15, 20:27
Ivan Podgornov Ivan Podgornov is offline
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Default Significant number of 1938 Ford truck in Luftwaffe with unusual bed

Hi,
Are there any thoughts on this Ford ?
Basically it's typical 1938 model (everywhere radiator grille or bumper is seen - it's 1938).
Definetely it's not a Cologne plant.
Also, everywhere registration number is seen - it's Luftwaffee.

Taking in account large number of available photos (around 50) - these are not unique trofy.
Also please note group photo with a batch of new vehicles.
Through, at lease 3 "series" can be identified by presense and types of sub-lights and width-indicators.

What's strange:
- Body has steel frame - like US stake-bed. It's untypical for Europe manufacturers
- What can be a source of these trucks in such numbers ?
- One of the photos marked with something like date 08/11.39. if it's really date - than list of potential sources exclude BeNiLux countries.
Attached Thumbnails
1938u3-sb-usf-sl0-n-001_group1-small.jpg   1938u3-sb-ust-slr-n_nWL122xx-small.jpg   1938u3-sb-usx-sl0-y_004-small.jpg   rsv1938u3-sb-r-y_DATE1939-11-08_full-small.jpg  
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  #2  
Old 04-09-15, 23:58
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cliff cliff is offline
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it may be possible for them to be ex-French contract trucks captured by the Germans at the fall of France
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  #3  
Old 08-09-15, 15:04
Ivan Podgornov Ivan Podgornov is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliff View Post
it may be possible for them to be ex-French contract trucks captured by the Germans at the fall of France
Thanks, Cliff,
Can you suggest some references regarding this contact ? (why, when, how many .... )
Is my understanding correct you don't mean Matford production, but vehicles shipped from US ? if so, why they weren't produced locally ...

Also I have doubts Matford had stamps for cabs, at least they 1937 model for Airforce had custom cab. Then, F598 had widened cab from 1935/36 model.
Also I never seen Fords 1938/39 identified as France-made (Sure i don't mean COE Matfords F917 and F11)
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  #4  
Old 08-09-15, 22:52
Bill Murray Bill Murray is offline
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For the benefit of other MLU members, Ivan and his Russian and Ukrainian mates have done an outstanding job of researching not only the Ford marque but also several others. Far beyond the normal research, with hundreds, possibly thousands of photos and detailed analyses of different characteristics of the vehicles. I believe most of them are modellers and wish to build/present very accurate representations of specific vehicles.

A lot of this material can be seen on www.acemodel.com.

So, Ivan, I have not corresponded with you for many months as my computer got some sort of malware and I lost much of my data base late last year.
Sorry about that.

Regarding your current research on that group of 1938 Fords, I did some work last year and never reported my findings. I will try to post here my current thinking on the trucks.

1. I agree that they are US style trucks with what appears to be a US style body. I would suggest they were supplied to some country as a complete unit in some quantities, possibly a few hundred.

2. As they mostly were used by the Luftwaffe and one of the photos is dated 1939, I agree that they did not come from the BeNeLux area.
Nor, do I think they came from any other Western European country or from any Scandinavian country because of the date of the photo.

3. That would seem to leave us with one of the countries that Germany occupied before 1939 or a neutral country that was allied with Germany and the Luftwaffe somehow took over vehicles from that country.

4. Information on such possibilities is a bit hard to find, but here are some possibilities...........

5. Hungary..... Ford Cologne supplied 820 trucks to the Hungarian Army in 1938-1939. I would suspect these were German style vehicles with the open cabin. Later, but still perhaps 1938 models, Mavag received 1500 Ford chassis and I have not found out where they came from. Some, obviously, were made into Mavag-Ford-Marmon 4x4 vehicles but I do not think all of them were 4x4.

6. Spain... Franco's armed forces received hundreds of Ford and Chevrolet trucks in this time period. Henry Ford was a bit of a "fan" of Franco and through the Ford Agent in Portugal, Franco was able to purchase many, many Ford products. It is possible I think, that the Luftwaffe could have taken over many of these trucks after the SCW was over.

7. I post below several photos of such trucks from both countries.

Bill
Attached Thumbnails
ford tanker import delivery hungary 0904 0915.jpg   ford 1938 hungary 2 0904 0915.jpg   ford 1938 or 1939 hungary 0904 0915.jpg  
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  #5  
Old 09-09-15, 14:27
Ivan Podgornov Ivan Podgornov is offline
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Hi Bill!
Glad to hear from you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Murray View Post
A lot of this material can be seen on www.acemodel.com.
Thread in Russian, however contains a lot of pictures:
http://www.acemodel.com.ua/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5218

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Murray View Post
7. I post below several photos of such trucks from both countries.
Thanks, and some comments from my side
- Photo #3 with tankers is actually great. i never seen such trucks in service.
As a base it seems to be late V3000s (we can see Koln cab with typical wall and roof mounting and also shortened foot-stand introduced an all V3000 after unification with Maultier).
Also, there are similar tanks mounted on 1935/36 model (see attached).
I don't know origin of these

- Photo #5 seems to be typical German late-production (It already has wide bumber with gabarite pins on its corners) G917T with standard Wehrmacht body.
Attached Thumbnails
51c_tanker1 camo oil tanker in russia 1943.jpg   51c_tanker1_PAG_1.jpg   51c_tanker1_PAG_2.jpg  
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  #6  
Old 10-09-15, 13:39
Bill Murray Bill Murray is offline
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Hi Ivan:

Thank you for the excellent photos.

I am posting here a few more, another of the 1943 delivery to Hungary and some 1935 models, also Hungarian.

It could be that your new photos are also of Hungarian vehicles, at least the tanker bodies are almost identical. A bit odd that two photos show Chevrolet Pag-Trekkers and I am not sure if they made it from Holland to the East but everything is possible.

Unfortunately, we had a major flood from a burst water pipe in the ceiling of our dining room last week and the house is a disaster with all of the dining room furniture sitting in hallways and in our living room and stacks and boxes of dishes, glassware and silverware piled all over the living room.

We have to replace the ceiling, the flooring and the wallpaper and that will take another week and a half.

So, my research has to fit in with helping my wife and sister-in-law pack things up and moving them around so as to empty the dining room in preparation for it's restoration.

Bill
Attached Thumbnails
ford 1935 tanker hungary 0909 0915 forte.jpg   ford 1935 tanker hungary 2 0909 0915 forte.jpg   ford tanker import delivery 2 hungary 0909 0915 fort.jpg  
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Last edited by Bill Murray; 10-09-15 at 13:43. Reason: missed photos
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  #7  
Old 11-09-15, 12:04
Ivan Podgornov Ivan Podgornov is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Murray View Post
......
5. Hungary..... Ford Cologne supplied 820 trucks to the Hungarian Army in 1938-1939. I would suspect these were German style vehicles with the open cabin. Later, but still perhaps 1938 models, Mavag received 1500 Ford chassis and I have not found out where they came from. Some, obviously, were made into Mavag-Ford-Marmon 4x4 vehicles but I do not think all of them were 4x4.
......
Bill
I've found some photo, marked as related to Hungary:
http://www.fortepan.hu/?tags=Hungary...q=ford&x=9&y=1

There are mix of vehicles from different countries (including couple of Ford-BB or GAZ-AA(bumper has 2 belts)), so it couldn't be a prooflink for 1938, but that is shown on the picture

5th vehicle in the row is 1938 Ford
6th - German G917T with metal cab
8th - Hungarian G917 Marmon with soft cab
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72258.jpg  
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  #8  
Old 12-09-15, 14:23
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Murray View Post
It could be that your new photos are also of Hungarian vehicles, at least the tanker bodies are almost identical. A bit odd that two photos show Chevrolet PAG-Trekkers and I am not sure if they made it from Holland to the East but everything is possible.
Interesting thread, can't add much besides that fact that the picture indeed shows a Dutch "Pag-trekker" (AT gun tractor). I would not be surprised that they ended up on the Eastern Front, will look if I can find any more.



For comparison I added a factory shot of Ford-based PAG-Trekkers
Click image for larger version

Name:	ford daf 1939 0711.jpg
Views:	7
Size:	59.0 KB
ID:	76147
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  #9  
Old 12-09-15, 19:01
Ivan Podgornov Ivan Podgornov is offline
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Hi Hanno!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra View Post
....
I would not be surprised that they ended up on the Eastern Front
....,
Yes they did ....

Here i tried to classify PAGs using photos available at that time:
http://www.acemodel.com.ua/forum/vie...=asc&start=199

Some pictures were taken on the Eastern Front
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