MLU FORUM  

Go Back   MLU FORUM > MILITARY VEHICLES > The Armour Forum

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-01-22, 04:53
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
Terry Warner
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Shouting at clouds
Posts: 3,081
Default WW2 myth busting info sought

I'm reading the new regimental history of the Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment (27th Canadian Armoured), and a footnote has made me mad. It claims that the Shermans were very tall compared to the PzKw IV and Panther V tanks.

A little wiki research didn't satisfy my curiousity. What are the definitive heights of these three tanks - to the top of the turret roof and the top of the cupola?

One specification which I bumped into for the Panther was its bore height. In other words, who cares how much more turret there is when the tube is the most important factor in a tank fight.

So, collective wisdom, where can I find good quality dimensions?
__________________
Terry Warner

- 74-????? M151A2
- 70-08876 M38A1
- 53-71233 M100CDN trailer

Beware! The Green Disease walks among us!
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-01-22, 05:23
edstorey edstorey is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Nepean
Posts: 204
Default Tank Heights

M4 Sherman 2.97m 9ft 9in
PzKpfw IV 2.68m 8ft 10in
Panther 2.99m 9ft 10in
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-01-22, 06:06
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Posts: 3,384
Default

That surprises me, Ed, particularly the numbers for the Sherman and the Panther, as visually, the shape of the Sherman looks taller.

Do you have any data for the height of standard turrets for all three by any chance? I am thinking perhaps higher turrets for the two German designs, as part of the need to cope with effective operation of larger guns and the Sherman went with a lower turret height because they could get away with it with the 75 Main Gun.

David
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-01-22, 11:25
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 278
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dunlop View Post
visually, the shape of the Sherman looks taller.
I think that’s part of the problem here: if your tank looks tall, it will attract attention more readily than one that is just as tall (or even taller) but looks more sleek. This is very hard to quantify, though, and might not matter as much in open country as in denser terrain — or perhaps the other way around?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-01-22, 00:30
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
Terry Warner
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Shouting at clouds
Posts: 3,081
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by edstorey View Post
M4 Sherman 2.97m 9ft 9in
PzKpfw IV 2.68m 8ft 10in
Panther 2.99m 9ft 10in
Is that to the top of the turret roof, or the top of the cupola?

And just to complicate things, which model of Sherman? Because not all had the same cupola. Hence my quandry.

http://the.shadock.free.fr//sherman_...s/cupolas.html
__________________
Terry Warner

- 74-????? M151A2
- 70-08876 M38A1
- 53-71233 M100CDN trailer

Beware! The Green Disease walks among us!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-01-22, 04:07
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
Terry Warner
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Shouting at clouds
Posts: 3,081
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh View Post
....

One specification which I bumped into for the Panther was its bore height. In other words, who cares how much more turret there is when the tube is the most important factor in a tank fight.

So, collective wisdom, where can I find good quality dimensions?
http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/m4sherman.html

The 'Fire Height' of an M4A2 Sherman III twin diesel was 88" (edited to metric 224 cm), and the height over the cupola was 108" (edited to metric 274 cm).

https://web.archive.org/web/20130517...rmany/pz5.html

The "Fire Height" of a Panther Ausf.G was 88.9" (edited to metric 226 cm), and the height over the cupola was 117.9" (edited to metric 300 cm).

Same deadlink source - https://web.archive.org/web/20130517...pz4.html#AusfJ

The 'Fire Height of a PzKw IV Ausf.H was 77.36" (edited to metric 196.5 cm), and the height was 105" (edited to metric 267 cm).

Therefore:

the Sherman wasn't necessarily overly tall at 108", but the small diameter cast turret probably accentuated that perception. The bore height of 88" meant the commander had to be careful because he would have exposed himself, the cupola, the various fittings on the turret roof, and the top of the mantlet before clearing the bore for a shot;

the Panther seems to have been the tallest at 118", and yes all models had a distinctive rounded tall commander's cupola. So, subtract about 8" to get to the turret roof at about 110". For a commander he still had to show some of the turret above the bore at 88.9" when in concealment; and

the PzKwIV intrigues me. It seems so small compared to the other two, even while it was a dominant combat tank. At 77" for the bore, that is only 6'5", and here too, the cupola was an obvious feature above the turret.
__________________
Terry Warner

- 74-????? M151A2
- 70-08876 M38A1
- 53-71233 M100CDN trailer

Beware! The Green Disease walks among us!

Last edited by maple_leaf_eh; 08-01-22 at 15:54. Reason: added a few metric conversions for generalized context
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-01-22, 11:28
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 278
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh View Post
Is that to the top of the turret roof, or the top of the cupola?
Spielberger’s Der Panzer-Kampfwagen Panther und seine Abarten has the Panther as 2.85 m tall with closed commander's cupola and 3.10 m with it open. Though it doesn’t indicate which Panther type these data are for, the 25 cm difference implies the later cupola with the hatch that has a “parasol” position.

Also, it doesn’t include a height to the turret roof, but does indicate the turret is 1.15 m tall including the cupola. Measuring in a drawing in the same book has the turret with cupola as 20 mm tall and the cupola alone as 6 mm, so the cupola would be 115 ÷ 20 × 6 ≈ 35 cm tall, meaning roof height would be 2.50 m.

Similarly, his Der Panzerkampfwagen IV und seine Abarten gives a total height of 2.68 m for all variants I checked. Again, the height to the turret roof isn’t shown but a little quick measuring in a drawing gives an approximate height of 2.33 m.

Hunnicutt’s Sherman: The History of the American Medium Tank has the height of the basic M4 with 75 mm gun as 108 inches, or 2.74 m, to the top of the turret hatch. For the M4A3 (75) W, so probably with the later vision cupola, the height is 115.7 inches, or 2.94 m, and for both the M4A2 (76) VVSS and M4A3 (76) HVSS, as 117 inches, or 2.97 m. Height to the turret roof is not indicated, but with the original two-piece hatch would be only a little less than with the hatch — call it 5 cm or so.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-01-22, 17:33
James P James P is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 386
Default

And this gentlemens bun fight about tank heights shows why single source information should be taken with a big grain of salt. Even the "little" T-34 tank stood eight foot tall. I think the German tank on tank killing prowess was well established with years of experience gained on the eastern front and that Shermans, in the open, in the attack, where relatively easy to pick off from prepared positions. German AT guns would be next to impossible to see till a couple Shermans blew up around you so there is that to consider also. I think the wildest two minutes inside a Panther turret during WWII would have been when in two minutes time a Panther crew knocks out five Polish Shermans at Hill 262.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-01-22, 03:34
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
Terry Warner
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Shouting at clouds
Posts: 3,081
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by James P View Post
..... I think the wildest two minutes inside a Panther turret during WWII would have been when in two minutes time a Panther crew knocks out five Polish Shermans at Hill 262.
Or the 1st Hussars Firefly that knocked out 5 Panthers in one punch up in early June 1944.
__________________
Terry Warner

- 74-????? M151A2
- 70-08876 M38A1
- 53-71233 M100CDN trailer

Beware! The Green Disease walks among us!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-01-22, 13:26
edstorey edstorey is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Nepean
Posts: 204
Default Tank Losses

It looks like the events of 8 May, 1945 demonstrated which side could afford to loose five tanks in a row.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-01-22, 00:34
James P James P is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 386
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh View Post
Or the 1st Hussars Firefly that knocked out 5 Panthers in one punch up in early June 1944.
True, fighting from a prepared position paid off when Henrys tank got the drop on them. The Germans did get some pay back on the 11th.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 17-01-22, 09:46
dcrfan dcrfan is offline
Paul Napier
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NZ
Posts: 52
Default

Surely your viewpoint on height depends if your considering your vehicle as being a potential target or an offensive weapon and nature of the terrain/vegetation you're operating in.

As a tank gunner you're taught to aim at the centre of the visible mass so the more you can see, the more target area you have to mitigate any errors in your accuracy.

On the offensive having additional height is an advantage so you can see over hedgerows or cutty grass etc noting you do need to get crest clearance on the main gun if that is the weapon you need to fire.

Paul
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 18-01-22, 04:08
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
Terry Warner
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Shouting at clouds
Posts: 3,081
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dcrfan View Post
Surely your viewpoint on height depends if your considering your vehicle as being a potential target or an offensive weapon and nature of the terrain/vegetation you're operating in.

As a tank gunner you're taught to aim at the centre of the visible mass so the more you can see, the more target area you have to mitigate any errors in your accuracy.

On the offensive having additional height is an advantage so you can see over hedgerows or cutty grass etc noting you do need to get crest clearance on the main gun if that is the weapon you need to fire.

Paul
Paul, glad to bump into you again!

I agree 100% that height is an advantage all its own. Where I get a little confused, is the M4 and Panther were/are comparable height and the Pz IV not so much, but the Sherman is perceived to be quite tall.
__________________
Terry Warner

- 74-????? M151A2
- 70-08876 M38A1
- 53-71233 M100CDN trailer

Beware! The Green Disease walks among us!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 21-01-22, 17:26
Ed Landstrom Ed Landstrom is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: south-west Ontario
Posts: 62
Default

Another illusion shattered. As far back as I can remember, the conventional wisdom has been that:
The Sherman's vulnerability was due in part to its high profile.
The high profile was necessitated by the radial engine initially used.
The radial engine was used because it was the only engine powerful enough that was available in quantity at the time the Sherman was being designed.
When other engines became available, the Sherman design wasn't modified to reduce its height because that would have delayed production.

Now that the first premise has been debunked (Is it possible that nobody bothered to look up the actual dimensions until now?) does anyone know if the others are also myths?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 22-01-22, 10:59
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 278
Default

Let me refer you to a post of mine above.

Which other supposed myths are you referring to, exactly? That the tank wasn’t redesigned when lower engines became available because it would slow down production? That would hardly be a myth: redesigning the basic shape would cause all sorts of delays, not to mention logistical problems that you can do without in the middle of a war. Fact is that there were several designs for improved Shermans, including things like welded turrets, hulls with sloping sides, a lower hull and more, and none of those were put into production.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 24-01-22, 15:53
m kenny m kenny is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: england
Posts: 47
Default



Last edited by m kenny; 24-01-22 at 15:58.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Studebaker US6 info sought David Doyle The Softskin Forum 18 11-04-20 23:56
F60S Tanker Info Sought DaveBuckle The Softskin Forum 5 28-01-20 02:14
MLVW info sought servicepub (RIP) Post-war Military Vehicles 30 06-12-13 15:07
M-100 trailer info sought Marc Montgomery Post-war Military Vehicles 28 23-10-11 00:27
BCATP info sought Tony Smith Your Relatives 5 13-09-09 23:04


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:12.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Maple Leaf Up, 2003-2016