MLU FORUM  

Go Back   MLU FORUM > MILITARY VEHICLES > The Carrier Forum

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-10-11, 00:28
Lynn Eades's Avatar
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is online now
Bluebell
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Posts: 5,374
Default Control rods. Riveted U.C.

My idea here is to make this thread a resource of info for the various control rods in the standard MkI U.C.
Most of the rods are medium tensile 7/16" dia. with BSF threads (the throttle control rods are smaller)
If I have any measurements wrong please advise, and I will edit my mistakes.
It maybe be that correct lengths are in a parts book, and if so, someone might like to put all of them up here.
Until then, here are the finished cut lengths of some, to start with;

There are essentially eleven rods;
Five for the brakes,
Two to hold the power unit to the rear plate,
Two clutch rods, and
Two throttle rods (1/4" dia.)
All rods are B.S.F. threads.

The LONGEST brake rods are both the same (TL5014) length at 2153mm overall length, with 32mm of thread at each end.
The transverse rod (TL 2332) is 646mm overall length with 45mm of thread at each end.

The front clutch rod (TL2328) is 1125mm long overall length, with 60mm of thread at one end, and 40mm at the other
The rear clutch rod (CTL7111) is 1078mm overall length, with 32mm of thread at each end.

The two throttle rods;
the long one is 1040mm overall length, with each end having about 25mm of thread. (rear?)(CTL7112)
the short one is 973mm. thread as above (front?)(CTL2744)
Which ever is the rear one may vary due to different throttle bell crank arrangements with 21 and 24 stud motors. The front rod is the same in all applications.

The engine tieback rod (TL 881) is 585mm overall length. It has 40mm of thread at one end, and 110mm at the other.
It has a kink at each end, about 100mm in.

With regards the cam control rods, the length of the rod from tip of the thread to the center of the pin (long clevis end) is 687mm. this includes the 35mm of thread. This would be the total of CTL 2881 and CTL2882 (1941 parts book) if both were riveted together as one assembly (and any adjustment would be made at the small clevis end. This is here so that someone can make up their own rod assemblies using original clevises. I hope its all clear?

The short brake rods are 250mm overall length. I have 35mm thread on one end and 40mm on the other. I made this rod some years back so these dimensions will need to be confirmed.
__________________
Bluebell

Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....

Last edited by Lynn Eades; 25-06-17 at 08:04. Reason: Cause I can.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-10-11, 11:17
RichardT10829's Avatar
RichardT10829 RichardT10829 is offline
Richard Harrison
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cullercoats Newcastle Upon Tyne United Kingdom
Posts: 3,044
Default

Well done Lynn.....this will help loads of folk, myself included ! i am missing the short rods that go from the brake pedal to the steering linkage bundle at the bottom of the steering column.

the steel used is it anything special ? reason I ask is the longer rods must get some pretty load on them and some steel is more flexible than others.... i have always wondered about this.
__________________
is mos redintegro

__5th Div___46th Div__
1942 Ford Universal Carrier No.3 MkI*
Lower Hull No. 10131
War Department CT54508 (SOLD)
1944 Ford Universal Carrier MkII* (under restoration).
1944 Morris C8 radio body (under restoration).
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-10-11, 11:51
Lynn Eades's Avatar
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is online now
Bluebell
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Posts: 5,374
Default Rich

I'm not that sophisticated, I arrived at medium tensile, because it aint mild and you have to be able to cut a thread into it. Are there any metalurgists on the forum that can do a rockwell test?

I only put in the time and effort because I thought it might help some bloke on the other side of the globe wot talks funny .
I will get to the short rods (they are the only ones left) Are you in a hurry?
I'd like to hear from someone with an original engine tie back rod. The thread on mine seems very long. Is it normal?
__________________
Bluebell

Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-10-11, 12:15
shaun shaun is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: uk
Posts: 528
Default

Lynn, Thats all very handy info mate. the engine tie rods do have a long length of thread because you have to be able to wind the nuts a long way on the bars. This is so you are able to jiggle them through the hull and then through the block, does that make sence to you ?
TTFN
Shaun
__________________
Shaun Hindle

Morris C8
Ford GPW jeep 1945
Morris 1000 (ex mil)
SAS LSV
Harley Davidson MT 350 motor cycle
Universal carrier MK 1*1943 Ronson (under restoration)
Universal carrier MK 2* 1944 (Puddle Jumper HSK 345)
Ferret MK 1/1 1956
Ferret MK 2/4 1958
CVR(T) Scorpion
432 MK2
Daimler MK1 armoured car 1943
(winner best wheeled armour W&P show 2011)
Daimler Dingo MK2 1944 (awaiting restoration, aquired 11/12/2011)
Fordson WOT 3 D 1940 (awaiting restoration )
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-10-11, 18:48
RichardT10829's Avatar
RichardT10829 RichardT10829 is offline
Richard Harrison
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cullercoats Newcastle Upon Tyne United Kingdom
Posts: 3,044
Default

no hurry at all Lynn..... and as always your efforts here are greatly appreciated.
__________________
is mos redintegro

__5th Div___46th Div__
1942 Ford Universal Carrier No.3 MkI*
Lower Hull No. 10131
War Department CT54508 (SOLD)
1944 Ford Universal Carrier MkII* (under restoration).
1944 Morris C8 radio body (under restoration).
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-10-11, 21:18
Lynn Eades's Avatar
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is online now
Bluebell
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Posts: 5,374
Default Shaun, Rich,etc.

Richard, the short rods are there, but as stated need someone to check the details, as my sample, I made, and may not be accurate.
Thanks Shaun for the explanation. I havent got that far yet, so didnt know.
__________________
Bluebell

Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-04-14, 21:57
RichardT10829's Avatar
RichardT10829 RichardT10829 is offline
Richard Harrison
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cullercoats Newcastle Upon Tyne United Kingdom
Posts: 3,044
Default

Sorry to resurrect the thread Lynn... The lengths quoted, is that minus the clevis pieces, ie it's the length of the actual rod rather than the assembly ?

Just getting ready to make up the front to rear brake rods, thinking about material, I cut the remains of one with ease using a blunt hacksaw today, my thoughts are if the brake works by being pulled on by the rod rather than pushed, then mild steel might be ok to use as it should be ok in tension.... Different gravy if they are pushed on though.
__________________
is mos redintegro

__5th Div___46th Div__
1942 Ford Universal Carrier No.3 MkI*
Lower Hull No. 10131
War Department CT54508 (SOLD)
1944 Ford Universal Carrier MkII* (under restoration).
1944 Morris C8 radio body (under restoration).

Last edited by RichardT10829; 09-04-14 at 22:45.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-04-14, 08:13
Ben Ben is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 543
Default

I made some using these dimensions and they were for the rod only, no clevis.

I ordered slightly higher grade steel. Mild steel today is generally crap. It wasn't much more money but seems to be better. For the life of me I can't find the invoice with the material name and number. If you ring a wholesaler and ask for some advise it would pay off. You'll be slightly limited in that you want 7/16 but the one I got has a little chromium in it as it's used it the petrochemical industry.

Ben
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-04-14, 08:31
Andrew Rowe Andrew Rowe is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Manawatu , New Zealand
Posts: 498
Default Steel Grade

Probably was 4140 -medium tensile , you can also get '' free cutting '' steels which cuts and forms threads better than mild steel grades.
__________________
Valentine MkV
Covenanter MkIV
Lynx MKI and MKII
Loyd Carrier / English / Candian / LP.
M3 Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-04-14, 12:55
Lynn Eades's Avatar
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is online now
Bluebell
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Posts: 5,374
Default

I was only ever talking about the finished length of the rod, including the threads and nothing extra. I'm sure I have already covered this. (see line 5 first post)

The rod is a medium tensile, which is what you would require. You have to be able to put a thread on it, but you want it strong.
Free cutting mild steel has a lower tensile strength than mild steel (mild steel doesn't have a spec) It is higher in lead content to make the thread cutting easier. It is not suitable for this job.

On the thread cutting;
It is easy to screw it up! (start it crooked)
When you buy your steel for your long rods, and you have cut them to length, you have only one shot at it.
The best way to do it (unless you have access to special thread rolling gear) is to put the rod in a lathe (chuck) and your die holder against the spindle of the tail stock.
This helps you to keep it all square for the thread cutting
You can then "feed' the die with the tail stock, while turning the chuck by hand (maybe easier swinging it with the chuck key)
It the case of the long rods, careful planning to support the rod is required (maybe put it in a pipe that fits in the hole through the headstock and supporting the other end with a stand or timber frame or what have you) Make sure the lathe is isolated (switched off at the main) or serious damage is likely.
__________________
Bluebell

Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....

Last edited by Lynn Eades; 10-04-14 at 13:02.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-04-14, 13:55
tankbarrell tankbarrell is online now
Adrian Barrell
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Suffolk, UK
Posts: 799
Default

If anybody needs these, I can do them as required. I would suggest EN8 and I would thread them in a capstan using a Coventry diehead, this would give perfect threads.
__________________
Adrian Barrell
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-04-14, 15:38
Lynn Eades's Avatar
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is online now
Bluebell
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Posts: 5,374
Default

Adrian, can you explain the EN system? I remember (as a young fella) the steel crank to have for a Lotus twin cam was made from EN40B.
If I was over there, I'd be taking up your offer.
__________________
Bluebell

Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-04-14, 18:37
tankbarrell tankbarrell is online now
Adrian Barrell
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Suffolk, UK
Posts: 799
Default

Lynn, it's the old British system BS970, superseded some years ago by a newer version with different codes.

Freecutting MS that you mentioned was EN1A and is now 230M07 where the 07 indicates carbon content, i.e 0.07 %. EN8 is now 080M40 so 0.4%. Carbon content is a good indicator of a steels ability to be hardened.

EN40B is now 722M24 and is a 3% chromium molydenum nitriding steel that when nitrogen hardened (nitriding) has a very hard wear resistant case and a tough (60tons) core. Ideal for a crank!
__________________
Adrian Barrell
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-04-14, 22:06
RichardT10829's Avatar
RichardT10829 RichardT10829 is offline
Richard Harrison
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cullercoats Newcastle Upon Tyne United Kingdom
Posts: 3,044
Default

Just thinking out loud, how much load can you put on the brake rod in reality? Do you think the small lever that is the brake pedal has sufficient length to pull a set of threads ?

I am only asking as I have access to a load of mild rod I understand the need for a greater tensile if the rod worked in compression

It's a shame that I need to go order some EN8
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-04-14, 23:43
Lew Skelton Lew Skelton is offline
Lew Skelton
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Feilding, New Zealand
Posts: 164
Default Mild steel rod

I don't want to come in late and blow it to bits but I used shiny mild steel rod for my long brake rods, I didn't think that the threads would ever pull off or the mild steel rod to be inferior, the clevis's are screwed on about an inch and a bit with a locknut so its not like they are compromised by being held by 3-4 turns. I cut my own thread using hand tools and the rods are working fine. Also made the engine to rear plate and clutch rods with mild as well as the accelerator rod. When cutting the old rods I replaced (as parts were excessively rusty, I cut them with a hacksaw) then re used sections I did not notice any increase in hardness. My carrier has been getting around fine. Im not saying take my advice as im just a mechanic, but if you have a supply of mild it would poss do.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-04-14, 00:23
Lynn Eades's Avatar
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is online now
Bluebell
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Posts: 5,374
Default

Lew it may be fine with mild steel (aren't some LP2 rods 1/2 inch?) but in this day and age of blame and litigation, I wouldn't knowingly be using an inferior component in my brakes.

Richard for the money you have spent on your carrier already, the rod is very cheap.

Adrian, Thank you for the explanation.
__________________
Bluebell

Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-04-14, 09:16
tankbarrell tankbarrell is online now
Adrian Barrell
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Suffolk, UK
Posts: 799
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardT10829 View Post
I am only asking as I have access to a load of mild rod I understand the need for a greater tensile if the rod worked in compression
That's a contradiction!

I'm sure mild steel would be fine though, normal bright mild steel is EN3B, it has a tensile strength of about 80% that of EN8.
__________________
Adrian Barrell
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-04-14, 09:22
RichardT10829's Avatar
RichardT10829 RichardT10829 is offline
Richard Harrison
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cullercoats Newcastle Upon Tyne United Kingdom
Posts: 3,044
Default

My thoughts being if the brake rod pushed the shoes on the rod would flex, and the need for higher tensile steel would be required.... Of course I could be way off as my understanding is negligible in this area.

I have dropped you a PM Adrian.
__________________
is mos redintegro

__5th Div___46th Div__
1942 Ford Universal Carrier No.3 MkI*
Lower Hull No. 10131
War Department CT54508 (SOLD)
1944 Ford Universal Carrier MkII* (under restoration).
1944 Morris C8 radio body (under restoration).
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-04-14, 09:35
Lynn Eades's Avatar
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is online now
Bluebell
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Posts: 5,374
Default

Richard, All the rods pull, none push.
__________________
Bluebell

Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-02-16, 19:49
Lynn Eades's Avatar
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is online now
Bluebell
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Posts: 5,374
Default

Can some one give me details of where the kinks are in the rear clutch rod
(CTL 7111 - 1078mm long) and maybe the angles?
Thanks in advance.
__________________
Bluebell

Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 25-06-17, 07:59
Lynn Eades's Avatar
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is online now
Bluebell
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Posts: 5,374
Default

CLUTCH REAR ROD KINKS.
To answer my own question:
With the rod installed the rear threads transition to plain rod sits approximately 25 mm rear of the bell housing line.
While the rod is in the above position the rear kink is in line with the vertical rod of the throttle bellcrank.
The front kink is about 80mm forward of the center exhaust manifold bolt.
The front and rear lines of the rod are parallel.

Clutch free board adjustment is achieved at the rear clevis. (it would be difficult to rotate the kinked rod)
__________________
Bluebell

Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 27-01-22, 09:38
Lynn Eades's Avatar
Lynn Eades Lynn Eades is online now
Bluebell
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Tauranga, New Zealand
Posts: 5,374
Default

I thought I'd drag this back to the top for Seb.
__________________
Bluebell

Carrier Armoured O.P. No1 Mk3 W. T84991
Carrier Bren No2.Mk.I. NewZealand Railways. NZR.6.
Dodge WC55. 37mm Gun Motor Carriage M6
Jeep Mb #135668
So many questions....
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Maple Leaf Up, 2003-2016