1940 SA Fords

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

'A number of Reconnaissance Cars S.A. Mk I (left) and Ford OIT/81, 3 ton 4 x 2 GS trucks (right) lined up prior to leaving the camp of a South African Army unit for exercises and manoeuvres in the field'.


http://cas.awm.gov.au/pls/PictionPRD...AID&parm2=2000

I am no expert, but assume that the armoured vehicles are Marmon-Herringtons? The Fords are clearly X01T 30 hp V-8 trucks, where 'X' indicates the assembly country...what WAS the Ford, South Africa code please? 'S'? Then I suddenly realised that I did not the Ford Australia code..'A'? '

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
I am no expert, but assume that the armoured vehicles are Marmon-Herringtons?

David, those armoured vehicles are correctly quoted in the caption: "Reconnaissance Cars S.A. Mk I". Because the British referred to two of these South African-built vehicles as "Armoured Car, Marmon-Herrington, Mk II / III", all Marks are popularly known as Marmon-Herrington armoured cars - while in reality they are South African Reconnaissance Cars! Oh well, what's in a name...
The South African Reconnaissance Car Mark I pictured here was actually a 2 wheel drive front engined vehicle (i.e. it was not fitted with a Marmon-Herrington All Wheel Drive conversion kit as on the Mk II and III). It only served in the South African "Union Defence Force". A total of 113 were built. Armament consisted of a single Vickers .303 MMG in a circular turret and a .303 Vickers mounted on the left hand side. Initial delivery was May 1940.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Thanks my friend...as I said I am no expert on such vehicles and I learn all the time. Thank you very much for the information.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

This is an official shot of a convoy of CMPs apparently driven up [after being railed Port Elizabeth to Broken Hill, North Rhodesia] to Egypt. The lead truck has a Mid-East allocated W.O. Census Number.

http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/...lk/sachevs.jpg

[nuyt]

Hi David,

About the 3-ton trucks: according to Bart Vanderveen's 1989 Historic Mil Veh Directory "thousands were built on locally-assembled Canadian sourced rhd chassis with detail modifications" (p. 280).
So Port Elizabeth was mainly supplied by Canada?

Hi Hanno,

About the Reconnaissance Car SA Mk III: as you know 49 were delivered to the NEI where they were known (more correctly than the British denomination) as Zuid-Afrikaanse pantserauto's or even Afrikaanse pantserauto's. Contrary to popular belief all vehicles were operational by March 1942 and organised in 3 independent squadrons (with additional softskin vehicles, jeeps and motorcycles), two in Western Java and one in Eastern Java. Another three pantserauto's acted as the recce squad of the Mobiele Eenheid at Bandung. All units are mentioned in Nortier's book about the fall of Java.
The only thing I am not sure of is their armament. On pictures (at AWM as well) from the end of the Japanese occupation Boys AT rifles can be seen. If these had been there on delivery the cars would have been ME version instead of MFF (which only had Vickers I think).

Kind regards,
Nuyt

[nuyt]

The South Africa recon Cars were distributed as follows (as far as I distilled this info from the work of JJ Nortier, De Japanse aanval op Java):

-3 cars: recce unit Mobiele Eenheid, Bandung;
-2 cars: at Tjiaterstelling, north of Bandung;
-10 cars: afd. Van Dongen (incl. platoon Heshusius), Bandung;
-5 cars: platoon Punter, Bandung;
-17 cars: afd. Ritman, Bandung;
-3 cars: Tjaroeban, Eastern Java;
-9 cars: Tjepoe, Eastern Java.

Total: all 49 cars.

HTH.
Nuyt

[Nigel Watson]

Just by chance I came across these two MH Armoured Cars sunbathing in deepest Africa. One I beleive is a MkI and the other a MkII. All fairly complete apart from top armour and insides.

http://www.sol.co.uk/n/nwts/images/Trucks/MHArmCar1.jpg

http://www.sol.co.uk/n/nwts/images/Trucks/MHArmCar2.jpg

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Nigel
One I beleive is a MkI and the other a MkII.

Since both appear to have four-wheel drive, they should be Mark II's and or III's. Both were very similar in appearance, the main difference was in wheelbase: 134" for the Mk II and 117" for the Mk III.

All fairly complete apart from top armour and insides.

"Only used to drive to church on Sundays"; and: "Ran fine when parked."

Seriously though, did you contemplate shipping them along with your trucks coming over from SA?

Hanno

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I assume that Ford South Africa supplied the chassis in the first place, and imported M-H components or did they import the whole M-H chassis? Who built the bodies? Was there a state-owned armoured vehicle builder?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
I assume that Ford South Africa supplied the chassis in the first place, and imported M-H components or did they import the whole M-H chassis? Who built the bodies? Was there a state-owned armoured vehicle builder?

"Prior to the Mark IV, the chassis was assembled by Ford Motor Company of South Africa (Pty.) using chassis components imported from Canada and based upon the pre-war Ford 3 ton lorry. The chassis was modified to four wheel drive using Marmon-Herrington supplied conversion kits."

Who built the bodies? Was there a state-owned armoured vehicle builder?

"Final assembly of these armoured cars was accomplished by the Dorman Long structural steel company. Armour plate was made by the South African Iron & Steel Industrial Corporation."

Quotes from my page on South African Reconnaissance Cars.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Thank you Sir!

I am fascinated to know if there was a Ford facility in the NEI...was there, as there was of course two factories in Amsterdam and Antwerp?

The other query to resolve is whether Chrysler had a facility in Antwerp pre-war?????

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Bukit Timah Road, Bukit Timah, Singapore must have received CMPs..1941-2 delivery SM 2104 3-TON 4 X 4 158” W.B. Ford C018QF. However some of these may have been diverted as my friend says in the next section! Did any of these end up in Japanese hands? The Singapore factory would have supplied the Malay States and was a Ford of Canada subsidiary.

S/M 2104 included deliveries for SINGAPORE but may have been diverted to Australia, and EGYPT
E.G. CHASSIS F-60448-M CAB 13
CHASSIS SERIAL 68048
ENGINE SERIAL 3G-20324-F
CONTRACT SM2104 BUILT MAR 17/42

In Australian Army service, this truck wore the ARN (Army Registered Number) of 53050. So this one was indeed diverted to Ford Australia.

Still no word on any Ford plant in the Netherlands East Indies. It would have been a Ford of Canada subsidiary if it was. I found that there were several hundred Ford Jeeps delivered in summer 1941 and assume that there must have been a Ford presence but where was it? Batavia? Nuyt can you track down please as this is annoying me that I am not getting an answer!

[nuyt]

David,

There were CMP's on Sumatra in feb 1942.

You can check picture 306791 at AWM.gov.au or type oosthaven in the search area (how do I bring it up on this forum?)

The CMP in the pic probably was British and came down with the retreating British and Dutch from Palembang, where some British and Aus troops had ended up. Also some equipment sent to Sing was diverted to Palembang when it became clear Sing was lost.

About Fords: the 702 Ford GP's I think were directly sent to NEI from US under Defence Aid or Lendlease. As far as other Ford products are concerned I have never come across so far a Ford assembly plant or other facility in the NEI. Nevertheless there were Fords. Could it be that a trader (handelsagent) was dealing with European Ford products in the NEI? Because I forgot to mention earlier: the firm Lindetevis-Stokvis was representing GM products prior to 1940 in the NEI.

HTH

Nuyt

[Nigel Watson]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Since both appear to have four-wheel drive, they should be Mark II's and or III's. Both were very similar in appearance, the main difference was in wheelbase: 134" for the Mk II and 117" for the Mk III.

Seriously though, did you contemplate shipping them along with your trucks coming over from SA?

I did seriously contemplate putting one of them in the container but didn't know if I could sell it once over here. By the way the top pictured one is a MkI, or at least it only has a rear diff. The others were MkII, yes there is another one waiting for an empty container. Never mind these softskins, get some armour Hanno!

Nigel

[Mark Sierant]

David in the book ONE FORTEENTH OF AN ELEPHANT which was written by a Brittish POW about his experiance on the Burma Railroad, deals with real life facts with name changes. The author relates stories about an Aussie Engineer who was the plant manager for Ford in the East Indies. This engineer from Ford provided them all sorts of help in overcomming machinery problems. I will look up the authors details for you.

[Tony Smith]

At the recent Kirwee show in New Zealand, I spoke with John Geesink, who was just a lad when the Japanese interned him and his family on Java in 1942. He has retained a very strong interest in the NEI and we discussed this the contents of this thread regarding GM vehicles. However, I was a little out of date before I left and came back to find the thread has switched over to Ford vehicles and GP's. D'oh!
John has a very nice GP in NEI markings and has a wealth of info regarding NEI forces. If only I'd asked about Fords

[Tony Smith]

of NEI GP.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

There MUST have been some form of Ford facility I am sure...it might have been a "Dealer-Assembler" such as Lilpop Rau und Loewenstein in Warsaw that assembled Chevrolets for the Polish Army as well as Chevrolet and Buick cars. I wonder if any directories exist for the 1940-41 period for Java?

[nuyt]

David,

I am doing my best but found very little references to Ford in the NEI so far:

-there seems to have been a very big dealer in Padang, Sumatra (a relatively large regional centre and with a developing industrial base in the thirties;
-there may have been some office/dealer in Soerabaja/Surabaya, Java;

Still, most likely is that prior to 1940 imports came from Europe through big traders/agents such as Lindetevis, Stokvis, Borsumij etc and that after that contacts were made directly with the company or through US authorities in the US by the Netherlands Purchasing Commission in New York.
And perhaps there was a role for Ford Singapore?
On Ford's website I read that the NEI were one of the first export markets for T Fords! But that would have been through Holland?

In documentation about large multinational entreprises and foreign direct investors in the NEI there is no word on Ford (There is of course on GM, Goodyear and others)

HTH
Nuyt

[nuyt]

Hi TOny,

Wow, a survivor KNIL Ford GP! Do you know if it was one of the happy few with 4 wheel steering?

I am not sure about the historical accuracy of the Browning. KNIL had watercooled .50, not aircooled, prior to 1942, it may of course have been a Dutch Army/KNIL adaptation from the Indonesian Indep. War. period.

Anyway, I hope Mr Geesink will join us on this forum, otherwise do you know if he has e-mail?

Kind regards,
Nuyt

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Still no word on any Ford plant in the Netherlands East Indies. It would have been a Ford of Canada subsidiary if it was. I found that there were several hundred Ford Jeeps delivered in summer 1941 and assume that there must have been a Ford presence but where was it? Batavia? Nuyt can you track down please as this is annoying me that I am not getting an answer!

David,

I agree with Nuyt. Although the chassis for Overvalwagens werre procured and modified locally, military vehicles such as Ford GP jeeps, Harley-Davidson motorcycles and White M3A1 Scout Cars were supplied through US Ordnance as military aid (although I believe they were paid for by the NEI government). Actually, because the Netherlands Purchasing Commission could not get the required numbers from the US government (who themselves were scrambling to build up their military forces), vehicles were procured locally (like the Overvalwagen) of from commercial firms like Marmon-Herrington in the US and Vickers in the UK. I have not seen any indication the Ford/Marmon-Herrington vehicles were delivered through a Ford agent or assembly plant in the NEI.

Hanno

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I am wondering if Ford Singapore had any responsibility for the NEI as well as Malay States, Burma, etc.? The lack of a Ford subsidiary did not stop Fords exporting from their Bombay Plant to Kabul. The Afghan Government just set up a company and factory to do the necessaries! However it does seem that the NEI was a long-term market for Fords. I am certain that "Soerabaja/Surabaya" on Java was a possible area for an operation. It seems familiar to me.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
However it does seem that the NEI was a long-term market for Fords. I am certain that "Soerabaja/Surabaya" on Java was a possible area for an operation. It seems familiar to me.

As long as you keep in mind that Ford sold their jeeps to the US government and their truck chassis to the Marmon-Herrington Company. Whoever or wherever the US or M-H gave or sold their (modified) vehicles to, was outside of Ford's contracts.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Very valid point Hanno. However I can write from evidence I have about contracts with GM in New York 1940-41, and I suspect that Dearborn was the same. Basically GM had special offices in NYC, Detroit and Washington under James D Mooney, who was ahem! sidewase moved to head a special office with a view to turning GM factories over to military production in June 1940, having previously been President of GM Overseas Operations. The facts are that whilst Mooney was ultimatetly responsible for the militarisation and military production, it was in fact Graeme K Howard, who replaced Mooney as President of GMOO that handled all military sales from overseas plus the Allison aero-engine project with the British Government, and then US Army as an adjunct after the British invested millions in new facilities and development. Military sales by GMOO were handled through NYC and all transactions were in dollars that went through NYC as well. At some stage it is clear that sales shifted through to the QMG with Defence Aid and then Lend-Lease also going through the QMG. All other contracts for cash, and that includes Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, British & French, etc. went through NYC but must have had official Washington sanction because of the Neutrality Acts of course.

From what I have read in official papers, Henry Ford was not interested in DA and L-L until August 1941 when a deputation from the UK reported that they had been to a US Government-sponsored exhibition and trial of military vehicles of all types and from various companies. It was reported that Mr Ford had evidently changed his attitude by then which was a pleasant surprise to the Brits! That said how come Ford were involved with the Jeep programme..so nothing is cut and dry except that with the Jeep programme that was indeed a US Government project.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I must add that it appears that CANADIAN contracts for cash by the British also went through NYC even though GM of Canada had a seperate arrangement of course through the BPC in Ottawa and the DND. The WO were always trying by 1941 to get US supplies rather than from Canada because they thought that they could get the same vehicles through DA and L-L and not have to pay cash to the Canadians [through NYC/{Dearborn?}]. Makes you cringe at the small-mindedness at the time but $$$$ were very short in supply.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Found the 1967 FCSC report on the claim for WW2 losses by GM Corporation!

GENERAL MOTORS JAVA: GM Java was located originally in Tandjong Priok, where trucks and commercial chassis were assembled, and a variety of passenger car chassis. In addition an extensive range of commercial vehicle bodies were manufactured there. After Pearl Harbor the NEI Army authorities requisitioned the truck inventory and ordered the transfer of production facilities to an inland location in an old sugar factory near the City of Solo. Does this make any sense Nuyt please? Prior to the occupation of Java by the Japanese forces in March 1942 substntially all of GM Java's passenger car inventories at the removed location were destroyed at the request of the military. Remaining truck inventory and assembly equipment was evacuated from Solo to a more remote area but were subsequently also lost and destroyed by Japanese military forces, and GM Java operations were suspended 24 March 1942. Inventory was assessed at $1,154,738; Machinery & Equipment $182,276 and Miscellaneous Personal Property $19,943, although GM lost a claim for 'lost currency'..i.e. dollars that they had to repatriate to NYC to pay for ordered inventory.

GM MANILA: GM Overseas Corporation registered in Manila 10 October 1940 and acted as a vehicle sales distribution company distributing vehicles imported from the US. $159,999 was claimed for property, equipment and inventory.

I am asking the US Foreign Claims Settlement Commission if they can send me a copy of the Ford Motor Company claim as it may refer to any NEI losses.

[nuyt]

David,

That makes sense:

Solo is another name for Soerakarta (mentioned before) on central Java, which is close to Djokjakarta and Wonosari (I guess Wonosari is the second more remote area as mentioned in the report).

So in december 41 the GM factory was requisitioned (didnt know this, I thought it was voluntary or commercial cooperation by GM), moved to Soerakarta, then probably some months (or weeks?) later to Wonosari.

Indeed, as I mentioned in my very first thread on this forum GM Priok produced a lot of vehicles itself. There are many pics of NEI pickups, light trucks and trucks that look like pre-war Bedford ML types, all probably from Priok.

INdeed the GM Priok installations (together with the port, the Navy airbase, oil facilities and twenty ships) were destroyed by NEI demolition squads from March 1 after the Japanese landings the day before.

HTH
Nuyt

[nuyt]

On the accomp. picture you can see a small collection of British military vehicles in Oosthaven, Sumatra in febr 1942. Oosthaven was the port through which the allied (KNIL, British and Australian) forces evacuated Sumatra. Much of their equipment could not be taken to Java and was destroyed to prevent it from falling into enemy hands.
The units involved had been stationed in Palembang, an oil town in Southern Sumatra or belonged to units that had been destined for Singapore.

On the picture:
- a CMP
- a Bedford OY
- a Ford Wot3?
all British (Army or RAF) or Australian?

Nuyt

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Did the Aussies have any Bedfords of that type? Looks Brit to me..is the CMP a #11 Cab or #12 ?

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by ericnuyt
On the picture:
- a CMP
- a Bedford OY
- a Ford Wot3?
all British (Army or RAF) or Australian?

Eric,
The Ford is a WOT2 15cwt truck. Several of these have come to light in Australia, origins unknown and a friend down there has rescued a Bedford OY for restoration, so it is quite possible that they did have some of these vehicles on strength.

Richard