'Owning' Military History

[Mike Cecil]

Gents,

I look at a site called 'Armoured Advocates' from time to time. It is a web-blog written by Lt Col Bruce Cameron MC (rtd) wherein he comments on a broad range of matters relating to current and not-so-current issues of interest to him. A day or so ago, he posted a commentary that ended with the statement:

"This raises the question (more a moral one than anything else) as to the extent that private individuals should be allowed to ‘own’ Australia’s military history for personal gratification."

Now, I know the author is not a collector, and indeed from the statement above, appears to have little understanding of a collectors mind-set, but the fundamental aspect he seems to have overlooked in that statement is that we 'collectors' collect what our various governments SELL and collect the cash for, and that once legally in private hands, are no longer the concern of government (or anyone else, for that matter). Trucks, tanks, aeroplanes, manuals, paperwork, tents, rifles .... all sold off by governments and legally collected by the likes of us. (Medals/medal collecting is a little different: given by a grateful nation to an individual, who is then, in most instances, able to dispose of them at some later date as they see fit.)

And if it wasn't for the likes of us collectors .... would there be much held in public collections? I know when I was at the AWM, we were very, very grateful to the collecting fratenity, as they were a constant source of items for the collection, items that Government has not seen fit to 'collect' at the time the items left service.

Given the broad range of experience and expertise on this forum - museum professionals, small and large scale collectors, researchers and authors - I'm interested in your comments about the 'moral' question raised by Lt Col Bruce Cameron MC (rtd) .....

Mike

[Mike Gray]

Mike,
Yes, I agree. Bit of a catch-22. The governments sell it off as surplus, no longer wanted. But eventually it finds it's way back to government museums for display. Witness the wholesale destruction and scrapping of surplus WWII aircraft at the end of the war. Now there are only two flying Lancasters in the world. Thanks to hard work and dedication of collectors and enthusiasts. And the public loves it.
I am an assistant at a private military museum. There is no charge to view. School classes come in for educational tours. I have a private collection of my own, which we put out on display every chance we get. 99% of the people can not say 'thankyou for doing this' enough times.
Just my 2 cents in on the subject.

[rob love]

Personally, as both a collector and as a museum employee, I feel the governments are trying to use legislation to cover up the expense of their short shortsightedness in the past. Unfortunately, here in Canada, we do not have property rights, and the government can legislate private property back into crown property without compensation.

The Canadian Forces are much better today about ensuring that examples of equipment remain in the museum system, but it was not that many years ago I saw that there was no interest in the "currently being disposed of" stuff. For instance, how many 5/4 tons or M151A2s do you see in any museum in Canada.

His statement smells like communism to me.

[maple_leaf_eh]

I echo what Rob says about current vs old artifacts. Today I was pulling map sheets from shelves which were soon to be emptied. One for me, and one for the Canadian War Museum. The Warrant Officer in charge of the map depot has bigger things on her plate than sheets for places we aren't going back to and would rebuild next time around anyways. They are old stock that doesn't move. Therefore, those sheet are dead stock getting in the way of more important inventory.

Unless the government is going to employ "armies" of restorers and reenactors continuously, the argument of reserving ownership is groundless. Soldiers need to get and stay current on the most important job of the land, namely defence (and offence). To distract them with another job is irresponsible.

You might ask the good LCol if he would extend his argument to culture and literature. Would he agree that books, plays, music and art are equally important for the health and identity of the nation? Just the same way he is protective of medals, cap badge collections and a few leaky old AFVs? I think having served in uniform only qualifies him to comment on a subject, not take ownership. Any number of much better informed opinions would pummel him for trying to exert government control over culture. In some places that is called censorship.

(I have a similar argument with those who believe only police and soldiers should have firearms - why, because they get issued one and that qualifies as being an expert?)

[Private_collector]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

"This raises the question (more a moral one than anything else) as to the extent that private individuals should be allowed to ‘own’ Australia’s military history for personal gratification."
Given the broad range of experience and expertise on this forum - museum professionals, small and large scale collectors, researchers and authors - I'm interested in your comments about the 'moral' question raised by Lt Col Bruce Cameron MC (rtd) .....

Mike

Perhaps the gentleman concerned may wish to see if he could get any govt. or organisation interested in restoring the vehicle below?!?!?! Of course they wouldn't. I couldn't disagree with him more. For each person or group who take pity on a pile of rusted parts, there will be another vehicle returned to usable condition. There would be massive amounts of vehicles and equipment available for public viewing, IF governments took the time and thought to consider future value of war material, INSTEAD OF DUMPING THEM overboard from ships, or off jetties. They were happy to take money for the ones that came home, and went up for auction. They sold theor right to these 'historically significant' items when the cheques got cashed following the sale.
CMP as found 1.jpg dsc_0010-1-resized-960.jpg
It's thanks to our 'personal gratification' that most of what still exists, is even around to be speculated on by misguided individuals who perhaps have a bit of green envy?!? Take the Ford Gun Tractor which was recently taken on strength by the AWM. That thing was languishing (in sections cut apart by gas torch) on a dump pile, on a farm in central Queensland. If the gentleman who restored it had jot done so, it would have remained there, to be slowly consumed by corrosion, or worse, sold to a scrap dealer for a handful of sheckles.
PB210031.JPG Front signage 1.jpg
Maybe the Lt Col., now that he is retired, may wish to turn his efforts to actually SAVING history instead of criticising those that do something other than lament the passing of such things. Jeezus he makes me mad! My own restoration has swallowed up tens of thousands of dollars of my own money, and time, so that just one more vehicle gets back to the shape it once had. Yes, I will certainly get a lot of satisfaction and attention once it takes to the road again. And so it should. These rolling museums will get people thinking again of that point in world history, and that's the important thing. If the equipment of war is not saved by individuals, then the efforts of the participants in combat fades from mind quicker. Such items are a jolt back to remember who actually used them long ago.

Like most countries, the Australian government was quick to dispose of everything it could, following world wars. It is THEIR fault entirely, for not having the foresight to realise people would want to know, and more importantly SEE how these endeavours were fought and ultimately won. You can't divest yourself of everything, then complain in decades to come, that private folks shouldn't be allowed to own (and maintain at own cost) war materials.

I think your man needs to crusade for a point of view that actually has a valid arguement. He might wish to turn his attention to the thousands of hard won service medals which are being sold each day, and often get broken from their sets, never to be joined again. Now THAT'S a tragedy that should be outlawed. Maybe he should consider why he sought to rise through the ranks of the military. Was it to serve his country in positive capacity, or was it, like so many others, to achieve a status of power and, dare I say it, 'personal gratification'?

[Wayne Henderson]

I would hope the statement of the Lt Col is not taken out of context but here comes my opinion of how the military cares for it's history.

They don't. Examples...

10th Light Horse.
Turk 105mm gun captured during the Beersheba Charge.
Left to rot in Kings Park Perth.
Given to volunteers (RAAHS) to restore when beyond restoration, at their cost. Only the barrel remains, lost.
I rescued the front shield from the scrap for my personal gratification.

Swan Barracks Naval Guns.
A pair of 1880 naval guns.
Restored by volunteers at their cost. When finished a fight broke out between Navy, AWM, Army and Albany Fort as to ownership.

Army History Unit.
A joke, an arse covering exercise.

The Artillery Barracks museum funding fiasco.

2009. RSL wanted WW1 truck for 2014 parade.
I found 1917 FWD but had to restore this at my own cost.
RSL said their budget was spent on organisation and promotional material by 2010.
RSL rang in 2014 to ask for a loan of any WW1 vehicles we had.
T model Ford was supplied by a Lt Col (RT) (dec) and a group of volunteers.

Sabre jet in Raymond Terrace, is that still there?

The Airforce cadet Vampire Project. Sad, Sad, Sad.

Anyone remember the fate of the WW1 railway gun?

International Acco Wrecker
Tried to save this one as it had just been serviced before decom.
Engineers turned it into a recovery aid.
One year later received a request for a International Truck from the AHU Good thing we saved the twin booms and gear off the back.

Anyone ever tried to get a Staghound of a firing range, legally.
Personal gratification for over two years.

RSL paying to put on Anzac Day marches, wtf

I have plenty more.

To be fair, the good...
The AWM, only 3000kms from here.
The graves and shrines around the county and overseas (guns not included)
Bandiana (when open)

Bugger off

[Mike Gray]

Good comments all. Our Canadian Government feels that cheaper is better. And puts our Canadian Forces at risk. Recall the purchase of the Oberon Class submarines. These things were museum pieces when we bought them. Who in their right mind would actually sail in one? All were scrapped as unseaworthy.
The one on display in Rimouski, Q.C. was bought as surplus for a whopping $4.00.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Wayne Henderson

I would hope the statement of the Lt Col is not taken out of context but here comes my opinion of how the military cares for it's history.

...

Army History Unit.
A joke, an arse covering exercise.

...

Bugger off

The Canadian Armed Forces has a Directorate of History and Heritage (DHH). It is mostly civilian academic historians. Do you see any vehicle restorers on the staff list? Note in their mission statement that their activities are in support of government policy.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-.../index-eng.asp

[Mike Gray]

Bruce,
Well said. Your dedication and ability at preservation and restoration of history is appreciated by so many.
The 'First World War Comes To Life' group, out of Lindsay, Ontario, maintains and restores a stunning collection of WWI vehicles and equipment. Most of which have never been seen before. Their first display of the season was in February. Admission was by donation to local food bank. They served up period food from WWI as well. Also free.
I believe the amazing collection of Gulf War AFV's and re-enactors that was at Aquino Tank Day in Oshawa last year is owned and funded by a private collector. It would otherwise never be seen either, if left in the hands of government departments and institutions.
Who is in a better place to recover, restore and display our military heritage?
We are.

[Private_collector]

Here, here, Mike!

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

The Canadian Armed Forces has a Directorate of History and Heritage (DHH). It is mostly civilian academic historians. Do you see any vehicle restorers on the staff list? Note in their mission statement that their activities are in support of government policy.

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-.../index-eng.asp

I had a chance to have a Professional Development visit to DHH. They are busy with everything Past Present and Future. That does not include vehicle restoration or artifacts, in the conventional sense.

DHH's Navy CPO1 explained just one of their challenges. Who issues regimental colours? They do. (Heads up - RCD's your guidon is ready.) Who gets new ones embroidered? They do. Who researches and monitors production all badges, crests, insignia, flashes and accoutrements? They do. Who controls the official symbols, like base flags and brigade patches? They do. Where are the physical records for operations kept? There. What happens when units go off on their own? Chaos and unapproved symbols. Sure it looks right, but there is the equivalent of copyright on the parts of an official symbol.

As I stated above, DHH has academics. They control the records they have. One worker commented that one group of records only starts in 1968, when one function changed from the Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps to a central office. If he wants to get older information, he has to go to a militaria show and buy it. This is the situation the Australian LCol was griping about. Is it wrong for information to be in the public realm? Is it better looked after? Dunno, but I would not begin to expect that organization as it is currently mandated, to hold an example of every vehicle or piece of equipment Canada ever issued.

[motto]

I long ago realised that we are only temporary custodians of the items that come into our hands. Some custodians are superb in their endeavours to collect, preserve and display. Some struggle to look after what they have and some are deplorable in being no more than hoarders who expend nothing on preservation and allow artefacts in their care to decay into oblivion. We've all met them. I am troubled by one at the moment who has a unique device that he will not part with and will not look after. Would I want the government to intervene at any level? No way! Governments have proven without doubt that they are as adept at incompetence as any private individual. The wider the dispersion of materiel the better the chances of some of it surviving. It is not an ideal world. The Colonel ha s his opinion and I have mine.

David

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Canadian War Museum Fox (at Canada's national military museum) vs. a privately researched and restored one. Guess which one runs and has somebody who knows something about it. Oh, and guess which one had its owner spend his time and money getting it to that state.