Cfr 70-08889

chris vickery · #1 29-11-13, 23:04

New to me, CDN-3 CFR 70-08889.
Recently rescued from the scrap. Isn't this the brother to the famous crazy 8?
Also noted, side mount pedestal for gpmg in place....
And does 89 refer to a particular call sign, as the jeep also has this number on it in a stand alone position on the dash above the grab bar?
It appears that this jeep was fitted with the extra radio bracing under both rear fenders.

Jon Skagfeld · #2 30-11-13, 08:08

Chris, what a question you just brought up about crazy 8s.

That jeep was on the DA for the Lorne Scots in Brampton.

I drove it many times, the first time being a rehearsal for an annual inspection held at one of the Air Canada hangars on Airport Road c. 1976.

This vehicle definitely had a pedestal mount for a GPMG, yet Frank von R, who owns it now, says there's no evidence of such an installation.

I've checked with retired members of the Lorne Scots who remember most definitely that a pedestal mount was installed in crazy 8s.

This mount was internally installed a la "Rat Patrol: type, not side mounted as you quote,which would have been an Armoured Recce unit (i.e Queen's York Rangers)

The last two numbers of the CFR do not refer in any way to a call sign.

chris vickery · #3 30-11-13, 17:30

Jon, exactly what I was afraid of, was that someone would confuse my query regarding the 89 call sign.
It just so happens that he last digits of the CFR are 89 but there is separately stencilled number 89 right above the grab bar as well. I want to know if 89 is a call sign and if so what it would represent. It appears that this jeep had carried dual radios, so I am wondering if it was a command jeep?

Jon Skagfeld · #4 30-11-13, 18:07

Chris: A "commamnd group" jeep call sign would be prefixed by 9 i.e that is the commander, 91 is the Sig O etc.

89 is the call sign for the OC Admin Coy. Beats me why he would have a dual radio set up and a side mounted GPMG???

chris vickery · #5 30-11-13, 18:35

Hi Jon
The interesting part to me about MVS is trying to decipher the riddles often posed by the addition or deletion of certain items over their lifespan.
From what I have gathered in my studies of the M38A1, is that they were used over a vast span of time, transferred, bastardized etc.
My 1970 shows signs for example of having the fire extinguisher mounted in both locations, once between the seats and once on the dashboard...
This 1971 I have picked up has its mysteries, perhaps once Scott gets back to me with the CFR info some will be solved.
My 1970 was proven to be an ex militia 1Hussars recce jeep before it ended life in the motor pool at CFB Borden prior to disposal. It is undergoing restoration back to its former glory.
Sadly, I think the 1971 will be relegated to parts only as its pretty tough...

Ed Storey · #6 01-12-13, 00:18

Chris:

What are the serial numbers of your two M38A1CDN3s?

ED

rob love · #7 01-12-13, 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Hi Jon

My 1970 shows signs for example of having the fire extinguisher mounted in both locations, once between the seats and once on the dashboard...

All (or the majority of) the M38A1 CDN2 and CDN3 should have evidence of the mount in both locations. It was a required modification (CF011) to relocate the extinguisher mount so the smg bracket could go there.

The dash is a very unlikely place for the call sign......usually the OC Adm knows his call sign. Can't say that I have ever seen a call sign on the dash. When it comes to jeeps, usually on the corners of the cowl, or under the doors.

I think that during the changeover from the C42 to the 524 sets, the radio switched sides. This can explain why it would appear to have had dual IKEE. Or, it may have had dual IKEE.....hard to tell.

chris vickery · #8 01-12-13, 02:16

Hi Rob
As always, appreciate the insight.
What I think is unusual is the fact that the CFR is clearly stencilled on the dash in white numbers as per usual and then there is another set of stencilled numbers above the grab bar, 89, in the same milspec font. Doesn't make sense to me other than my assumption that perhaps it was the call sign?
I have not seen this on any other m series jeeps. Do not think it is a bubba add on as this jeep is a typical example of what happens to milsurp vehicles. Buy it, drive into the ground and abandon.

rob love · #9 01-12-13, 05:49

Post a picture and perhaps we can make a better determination.

chris vickery · #10 02-12-13, 23:26

Ed, the serial numbers of my CDN3s are 100071 (CFR 70-08669) and 99881
(CFR 70-08889)

302Trooper · #11 03-12-13, 22:12

Chris,

89 in the Armoured world is the (OC) Officer Commanding (HQ SQN)Headquarters Squadron- B Echelon C/S 8. Hope this helps you.

I still cannot find any info from the Windsor Regiment on my CDN 3 which served its whole career there. Glad to see another jeep saved.

Dave

chris vickery · #12 04-12-13, 01:11

Thanks Dave
Maybe once we see the info for the CFR maybe it will make more sense.
This particular unit has the side mount for the gpmg which I believe was a stop gap measure for militia jeeps. The Elgin or Windsor Regts were armoured militia units, no?

Jon Skagfeld · #13 04-12-13, 14:23

Chris: Both 302Trooper and I are correct about call signs.

As 302 Trooper posted, 89 is the OC HQ Sqn in an Armoured unit, whilst 89 is also OC Admin Coy in an infantry unit.

In order to distinguish just who is who on, for example, a joint infantry/armoured cooperative tasking, arm indicators are used.

So, if an infantry unit and an armoured unit were participating in a joint mission, how could anyone figure out who was who, since they had the same call sign.

That's where arm indicators come in.

The prefix India or Kilo are used for infantry; the prefix Tango or Uniform are used for armour, i.e.

OC HQ Sqn Armoured unit wants to communicate with OC Admin Coy Infantry unit the process would be:

I89 this is T89, blah, blah, blah, over...

References:
B-GL-011-00E/FT-K01.

ACP 125 CANSUPP-1(B)

I guess this sorta explains why the side mounted GPMG was there.

rob love · #14 04-12-13, 15:17

The GPMG mount was only for the militia light recce. They were not for regular force units, and within the militia unit they were not really meant for the OC of HQ. The particular militia unit I was with had 15 or 20 M38A1 with the GPMG mounts and wire cutters for the fighting troops, and 3 M151A2s with only IKEEs for the officers.

As well, with the high VOR rates of militia jeeps back then, it was not common for them to have call signs painted on them (still isn't today) because they were generally applied in chalk at the beginning of an ex, when you knew how many jeeps you had and how many troopers showed up.

For that matter, it is rare to see callsigns on any militia vehicle. That is how you can tell a convoy of militia LSVWs and MLVWs from a convoy of regular force trucks....call signs and radio antenna.

When I was in Gagetown back in 1980 I think I did see a M151A2 with a GPMG mount in Cougar support squadron. Made no sense since the mount should not have been in a regular force unit, nor should it have been mounted on a M151A2.

Scott Bentley · #15 04-12-13, 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob love

For that matter, it is rare to see callsigns on any militia vehicle. That is how you can tell a convoy of militia LSVWs and MLVWs from a convoy of regular force trucks....call signs and radio antenna.

Isn't that the truth....

The Reserve "Regiment" where I am currently posted (RSS) had three man-packable and one vehicle mounted radio when I arrived. Its a bit better now, but not much. Lots of driving around with the whip out the window of the MILCOT.

chris vickery · #16 04-12-13, 22:51

Whenever you are back online with the EDR I am eager to see what mysteries we can unravel regarding this jeep!
Thanks as always, Chris

45jim · #17 06-12-13, 16:02

I drove crazy eights while in the Lorne Scots and it never had a pedestal mount, or any gun mount for that matter. We being an Infantry unit had no need for a mount as we didn't have a single .50, just the old GPMG. None of the jeeps in the unit, or any other unit in HMD had one at the time. Friends in the Queens York Rangers lamented the fact of just having the side mounted Pig. Looking backward through rose tinted glasses me thinks.

The only pedestal mounts I ever saw were on cut up M38A1's in Cyprus. They were sitting on the bottom of the Med in a pile. We had the Iltis on my Cyprus tour but plenty of two-timers remembered firing .50 from the M38A1's from the pedestal and said it almost shook those old jeeps to pieces and was as stiff as a noodle, not a good mount for such an accurate gun.

Chris, I think you should forget the call sign thing, its just wishful thinking. Its really accurate to say that depending on who showed up and how many vehicles were available that weekend, would be the determining factor as to what callsign was given to a specific vehicle. And when talking command call signs, they were assigned to the person not the vehicle. If the vehicle broke down and he moved to another vehicle, he took his call sign with him.

chris vickery · #18 07-12-13, 21:19

Respectfully, Jon and others, but my post is starting to wander.
How did we get on to pedestal mounts? AFAIK, a pedestal is a mount in the back of a vehicle and no where did I bring this up in my query.
What I did indicate was the presence of the side mounted GPMG mount, typical of Militia jeeps.
I did also note today when looking at my jeep, that it has the wire guard on the back floor to protect the radio cable running from passenger side to driver side. Was this part of the dual setup or was it also used because radio mounting location had been changed from passenger to driver side?
I know the power supply comes in just behind the passenger seat and it is still there. Maybe radio types/ veh techs might have some answers, Rob, Jon???

rob love · #19 07-12-13, 21:34

The wire guard on the floor was not unusual. It could indicate mounting of a radio on the left fender vs the right, and may have nothing to do with dual IKEE setup.

As to wandering threads on MLU???? Never happens.

Frank v R · #20 07-12-13, 22:05

Hi Chris , I do not remember ever seeing a CDN 2 or 3 without the guard and I think the floor also has welded speed nuts for it from the factory,
regards Frank

rob love · #21 07-12-13, 22:46

That was my experience as well....pretty much every jeep had the guard.

chris vickery · #22 07-12-13, 23:04

Thanks guys, thats what I was looking for.
My first CDN3 is missing the guard, so I was not aware of the relevance towards one radio installation or another.
Was the adotion of the rear fender support brackets on both sides common practice as well? By that I mean to say, was it usual to install these extra supports on both sides whenever the CFTO was produced/was this done under a CFTO or was it factory ordered under the various contracts, beit Ford or Jeep?

rob love · #23 08-12-13, 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Thanks guys, thats what I was looking for.
My first CDN3 is missing the guard, so I was not aware of the relevance towards one radio installation or another.
Was the adotion of the rear fender support brackets on both sides common practice as well? By that I mean to say, was it usual to install these extra supports on both sides whenever the CFTO was produced/was this done under a CFTO or was it factory ordered under the various contracts, beit Ford or Jeep?

Photos would save a lot of BS but if you are talking about what I think you are talking about they came from the factory.

chris vickery · #24 08-12-13, 01:03

Rob, I will endeavor to take a few pics and get them on here. I find pic posting is usually a PITA here on MLU, maybe its my lack of computer savvy...

rob love · #25 08-12-13, 01:34

I am by no means a computer guy, but I actually prefer posting them here over many of the other sites where i have to use photobucket.

Load the photos from your camera to your computer into a file under your pictures. When you reply to a post, there is a button about 6 inched down called manage attachments. Click on that and another window will appear. On the top left of that is a button "browse". Click on that, find your pictures and then your subfile and then whatever photo you want to post. Click on the photo you want, then click the upload button. Once it is loaded (you can post 4 or 5 to a reply) close the "manage attachments" window and your shots are now part of MLU, and will show up on the bottom of your post.

45jim · #26 09-12-13, 02:03

Must be a mighty small penis behind that computer, Jon!

Don't beat yourself up too hard, stupidity and arrogance can be cured...a well placed bullet will clear that right up! Probably have to aim squarely at your ass though!

There weren't any gun mounts used on M38A1's operated by the Lorne Scots during my time (1981-1984). And no holes in the floor as we drilled some out to make a plywood reviewing stand one summer. If there were holes already there in the floor we would have used them and that would have been because they had mounts before. Simple..they didn't.

For the record my name is Jim Rice, while I never sold or promised M38's to anyone, I wish I had - to you! I'm really liking the guy who shafted you as he obviously took you for the asshole you are.

Hanno Spoelstra · #27 09-12-13, 07:39

Jim and Jon,

1) Take your pissing contest elsewhere.
2) Edit your postings to get rid of the foul language.
3) Do it now or else you get banned until you can behave again.

Hanno
MLU Administrator