Revolver ID?

[Bill Miller]

I've had the following photo for a while and I have not been able to positively ID the type of revolver? The photo is not particularly clear but I am hoping someone here more familiar with the details of hand guns will know what they are looking at?? The men in the photo are Canadian tank men (notation on the back says, "...cleaning web at gun point!")

Enfield, S&W, Webley, other...???

[aj.lec]

Looks to be a Smith and Wesson model 10 victory probably in .38 cal

[malcolm erik bogaert]

I have a similar pistol here and its a Webley 38 regards malcolm

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Definitely a Smith & Wesson, most likely a .38, but it looks to have a 6" barrel vs the 'standard' Model 10 5"... intriguing for sure. Mind you, early in the war the U.S. shipped boatloads of the bloody things to Britain (they didn't want them), so who knows.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Looks more Colt than anything..
May be single action even..
Not S&W..Definately not Webly ..Look at the frame where the pistol grip meets the cylinder and the front sight and the extractor rod...all Colt..

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Alex Blair

Looks more Colt than anything..
May be single action even..
Not S&W..Definately not Webly ..Look at the frame where the pistol grip meets the cylinder and the front sight and the extractor rod...all Colt..

Naw, I'm pretty sure it's a Smith, Alex... probably a New Century model (which I used to own), albeit it looks too small to be a .455...

[aj.lec]

I still say s&w
dosen't look wide enough in front of the revolving chamber or swept around the hammer like most of the ww2 era colts
Bit hard to tell with the serviceman behinds belt buckle blurring the ejector pin
Appears to have a round barrel so very doubtful a webley

Dose appear it could be a 6" barrel though
As geoff has stated could also be a new century model

Reading through an article and it stated they also produced a 6" model but were generally issued to us troops and not so much allied troops that requested 5" in .38 200 grain slugs

quote "The Victory Revolver was produced during World War II, it is a variation of the Military & Police Model of 1905, fourth change and had the following characteristics between 1942 and 1945:

Barrel: 2, 4, 5, or 6 inch. (4 inch common in .38 special, 5 inch common in 38/200 or .38 S&W)
Sights: Fixed
Finish: Early sandblast blue, sandblast mid-night black (appears grayish black). And finally a parkerized finish. Hammer and Trigger are case hardened.
Grips: Checkered walnut with medallion until early 1942, post February of 1942 they are smooth American Walnut with out medallions. "

picture is a s&w victory in 5"

[servicepub (RIP)]

Absolutely no doubt but that it is a S&W Military & Police (later known as the Model 10.)

Canada was a big buyer of these and the full history is detailed in my book "Canadian Military Handguns, 1855-1985"

"In 1932, the British Army adopted a lighter top-break revolver - the Enfield No.2 Mk I - chambered for the new .380/200 service cartridge (a military loading of the .38 Smith & Wesson employing a somewhat heavier 200 grain bullet). During the 1930's, the fledgling RCAF obtained 585 of these British pistols, but with the outbreak of WWII, Canada elected to adopt the Smith & Wesson "Military & Police" model revolver (in effect, a lighter version of the "Hand Ejector") which, in .38S&W chambering, would accommodate the standard .380/200 British service cartridge. Over 118,000 of these revolvers were purchased from 1939 through 1943.

Configuration of Canadian-issue arms: Double-action revolver, ranged from early acquisitions with commercial polished blue finish and checkered walnut grips through brushed blue to later "wartime finishes" of sandblast blue and sandblast parkerizing with smooth wood grips; 4", 5" and 6" barrels (5" most common); .38 caliber; 6-round capacity; cylinder swings out to the left for loading and extraction. In service, 1939-1964."

From www.Canadiansoldiers.com, based on my book.

[Neil Ashley]

Loads of these for sale in the UK as deacts

I assume this is the same weapon here.

http://www.worldwidearms.com/popup.c...7133&p_i=97133

[Dean (Ajax)]

Kicking around here somewhere is a book on British Service revolvers.I remember reading that Canada recieved a pile of pistols from the US on a Lend Lease Bases..when Camp X opened they guurads first carried these Lead Lease Pistol before Automatiics were issued..and oother odd thiing, is that one type of these pistol could take 2 differant types of rounds..wish I could find my boook.

Dean

[sapper740]

Originally Posted by Dean (Ajax)

Kicking around here somewhere is a book on British Service revolvers.I remember reading that Canada recieved a pile of pistols from the US on a Lend Lease Bases..when Camp X opened they guurads first carried these Lead Lease Pistol before Automatiics were issued..and oother odd thiing, is that one type of these pistol could take 2 differant types of rounds..wish I could find my boook.

Dean

Dean, you're probably thinking about the .38 Long Colt and the .38 Special which were both U.S. service rounds used in the S.&W. Military and Police revolver. Their dimensions, other than length, were identical and thusly could be chambered in the same firearm. There are any number of revolvers that can chamber various rounds. Ignoring the numerous .22 RF cartridges and the various hand-cannons based on the .45-70 cartridge et al we'll concentrate on the centre-fire cartridges.

Any revolver chambered for the longest and highest pressure round will safely fire any shorter and lower pressure round:

.357 Maximum>.357 Magnum>.38 Spcl.>.38 Long Colt>.38 Short Colt

.444 Marlin(a rifle round)>.44 Magnum>.44 Spcl.>.44 Russian

There are currently both a revolver and a derringer being manufactured in the U.S. that will chamber both the .410 shotshell and the .45 LC and for a time Ruger made a revolver they called the convertible which had two cylinders, one for .38 Spcl and the other in 9mm Parabellum. Lastly, and not as well known is you can buy chamber inserts that will allow you to safely fire .32 Auto (7.65mm in Europe) in any rifle chambered for .30-30 Winchester, .308 Winchester/7.62 NATO, .30-06, or .300 Winchester Magnum. Derek.

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Dean (Ajax)

Kicking around here somewhere is a book on British Service revolvers.I remember reading that Canada recieved a pile of pistols from the US on a Lend Lease Bases..when Camp X opened they guurads first carried these Lead Lease Pistol before Automatiics were issued..and oother odd thiing, is that one type of these pistol could take 2 differant types of rounds..wish I could find my boook.

Dean

Dean,

There was a book a few years ago by Chamberlain and ??? which, although well researched from a Brit point of view, suffered fom a repetition of BS on the Canadian side. My book was based 100% on archival sources and official documents.
Canada did NOT receive Lend-Lease. We paid for everything we obtained from the US. In fact Canada was a supplier of 'Lend-Lease" athough we called it Mutual Aid.
There was a .45 Colt revolver that, with a half-moon clip, could accept a .45ACP round, designed for automatics. All revolvers in .38, .45 and .455 as well as all automatics in .45 were required for the war effort, and a campaign to collect these was established in 1943.

[cletrac (RIP)]

Derek, you could add the 38 S+w to the end of your list. That's the round the British Enfields take.

[Dean (Ajax)]

Clive, Thganks for slearing that up..I will have to dig that book out this weekkend...also I just started reading "Uot of the Shadows" Which is about how we got up to full production ect during WW2...very interesting so far.

Dean

[maple_leaf_eh]

My great uncle Blackie Paige had been a Mountie prewar, and joined No.1 Provost Company at the war's outset. He served throughout the war, and returned to peacetime policing. One of his jobs was guarding POWs.

As a boy I asked him if he'd ever had to shoot someone. Twice, he said. Shortly after DDay he had a loose cordon of wire around a large group of prisoners. One of them made a break for freedom. One shot he said.

(Of course, I can imagine the usual words of warning lost in the hubbub of a crowd. Then a man purposefully extracts his revolver and cocks it. With a deliberate one-handed stance he sights his target and fires. A hush fell. And nobody flucked with that Mountie ever again!)

He also had to shoot a man in self defence in Holland, when he found an armed straggler who wouldn't surrender. He kept that man's P38.

[Lang]

I am no expert on handguns but remember when I first joined the Australian Army in 1967 there were still S&W 38's in service. Apart from the fact the quality of construction was atrocious, their accuracy was about the same as all non-target pistols - I would accept a bet of only $100 to stand at 100 metres and give anyone one aimed shot at me. I think Terry's Mountie uncle was a lucky shot or got his man inside 20 metres.

The S&W were replaced by the beautifully machined Browning 9mm automatic - which of course was no more accurate. The S&W was kept in service for use by pay officers up until the 90's. When you collected the pay they gave you the tired old S&W with the same half dozen rounds, worn and shiny from being carried in a generation of pay officer's pockets. They were not to be put in the weapon unless you were being robbed. "Excuse me just hold that thought while I load my pistol." I never heard of one being used in anger.

I think the Army has very little use for pistols these days but I suppose a pistol is better than trying to stick someone with a bayonet from 2 metres.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

It may interest you to know that the Canadian Army is still using the Browning Hi Powers manufactured by the John Inglis Co (here in Toronto) during World War II... I have no doubt that were we still using Brens we'd be carrying our own wartime Inglis-manufactured ones as well - quality goes a long way these days, I reckon!

[servicepub (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball

It may interest you to know that the Canadian Army is still using the Browning Hi Powers manufactured by the John Inglis Co (here in Toronto) during World War II... I have no doubt that were we still using Brens we'd be carrying our own wartime Inglis-manufactured ones as well - quality goes a long way these days, I reckon!

In fact, when I wrote "Inglis Diamond", in 2001 the Cdn Forces still had 19,000 of these in storage. Since then the static inventory has dropped to about 13,000 with many on issue in the Sandbox and many more cannabilized for maintenance spares.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Lang

I think Terry's Mountie uncle was a lucky shot or got his man inside 20 metres.

Blackie was a champion rifle and pistol shooter indeed. His name is on many of the silver pots awarded by the Saskatchewan Provincial Rifle Association.

As for Browning HPs, I was carrying an 8T---- pistol for 6mos in AFG this time last year. Although not specific to CMP trucks and all, I have noticed the Canadian Forces' Brownings in circulation are more and more the later serial numbers. The WWII John Inglis marked magazines have been replaced (about fluckin' time!) with new Belgian commercial mags. The practise ammo is US commercial hardball, not good old IVI 9mm which is all overseas. And more than once lately have I seen the locking 'shank' on the barrels break or crack.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Lang

I think the Army has very little use for pistols these days but I suppose a pistol is better than trying to stick someone with a bayonet from 2 metres.

In my experience in three hostile environments, pistols are the preferred sidearm for low possibility conflicts. Rifles have a clear and definate place, but having a sidearm does give the soldier a means of protection when all else fails. Vehicle crews almost always had handguns.

The camp in AFG where I was had several distinct armed classes. The Canadians were always armed and carrying live ammo. The Americans had their rifles, but no ammo. The Brits had neither. The Aussies had their version of the Steyr AUG and Browning, but I forget whether they had ammo or not. The Dutch were unarmed and longhaired. The French had their FAMAS rifles and fashionable sidearms. Some Danes carried their early SIGs (those were not the same ones who wore sandals and shorts, and road bicycles).

[horsa]

In reference to the WWII production Inglis Hi Powers still being used by Canadian Forces overseas, I'm curious if they are being issued with NATO 9mm ammunition. Reason I ask is that it is usually 124 grain with a +P rating meaning it is 10 percent hotter than normal ammunition. Usually this is fine in a modern pistol but I'd think the vintage Hi Powers would suffer over time.

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by horsa

In reference to the WWII production Inglis Hi Powers still being used by Canadian Forces overseas, I'm curious if they are being issued with NATO 9mm ammunition. Reason I ask is that it is usually 124 grain with a +P rating meaning it is 10 percent hotter than normal ammunition. Usually this is fine in a modern pistol but I'd think the vintage Hi Powers would suffer over time.

Hi Dave..
I had one of the Chinese Contract High Power Brownings made by Inglis and fired the Cdn.Military ammunition that was designed for the Stirling Sten gun..
the 9MM parabellum round was pretty hot..No problem with the Browning..I hand loaded also and cranked up some pretty hot stuff and not a problem either..
The High Power had a strong action and I never had a problem with it..
My High Power was right out of the old Military surplus stocks ,never issued and still had the cosmoline on it..
It was a beauty and still as good today and it always was..

[malcolm erik bogaert]

when I joined the old and the bold in 1966 we where still using the 38....sometime later we where issued with 9mm Browning...although I was an expert with the 7.62(SLR-LMG-GPMG) I would have to admit that it was very difficult to hit the bull in the static target with 38 or 9mm let alone a moving target!In my job I had the choice of 9mm browning or Sterling SMG....I always plumped for the SMG although to be fair it was also not very accurate...in conclusion I would also agree that the Inglis weapons where very well made as where the pickaxe handles which was the very first weapon I was issued with!!!! best regards malcolm

[Lang]

Terry,

I did not mean to cast aspersions on your old uncle, I am sure he was an excellent shot. It's just my experience with pistols puts them in the class of replacing a sword or club at close range.

When I was a kid I was a platoon commander in a recruit training bn for a few months at the height of the intakes for the Vietnam war. Mainly because I liked shooting I finished up with the job of range officer for our bn. Using the 7.62 SLR, 9mm F1 smg and Browning pistol I put probably 500 other kids (with the help of a couple of sergeants old enough to be my father!) through their basics.

The whole point of this ramble is we used man sized/shaped targets at 25 metres for the pistols and smg's. I would swear in court that the average pistol hits - anywhere on the target- was 5 out of 11. This was with people in a calm situaton being quietly coached. Even the old sergeants who had been teaching weapons since WW2 and could consistently empty the whole pistol magazine into the target had groups which ranged from the scrotum to the eyebrows of the "enemy".

Always on full auto and few mastered tapping off single rounds, the smg was a device invented by ammunition companies. If the targets got 10 hits from a 25 round magazine shoulder fired or 5 hits instinctive fired from the hip the shooter would deserve a trophy. An excellent weapon for shooting opposition gangsters lined up 5 metres away in a garage in Chicago.

A pistol hanging from your belt might look and feel good but I think unless I was an armour crewman, pilot or in some other restricted access job my weapon of choice would be a rifle (which have become shorter and more convenient). Apart from that I bet more people have been shot with pistols through mishandling accidents than have ever been shot in anger!

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Lang

Terry,

I did not mean to cast aspersions on your old uncle, I am sure he was an excellent shot. It's just my experience with pistols puts them in the class of replacing a sword or club at close range.

When I was a kid I was a platoon commander in a recruit training bn for a few months at the height of the intakes for the Vietnam war. Mainly because I liked shooting I finished up with the job of range officer for our bn. Using the 7.62 SLR, 9mm F1 smg and Browning pistol I put probably 500 other kids (with the help of a couple of sergeants old enough to be my father!) through their basics.

The whole point of this ramble is we used man sized/shaped targets at 25 metres for the pistols and smg's. I would swear in court that the average hits - anywhere on the target- was 5 out of 11. This was with people in a calm situaton being quietly coached. Even the old sergeants who had been teaching weapons since WW2 and could consistently empty the whole magazine into the target had groups which ranged from the scrotum to the eyebrows of the "enemy".

Always on full auto and few mastered tapping off single rounds, the smg was a device invented by ammunition companies. If the targets got 10 hits from a 25 round magazine shoulder fired or 5 hits instinctive fired from the hip the shooter would deserve a trophy. An excellent weapon for shooting opposition gangsters lined up 5 metres away in a garage in Chicago.

A pistol hanging from your belt might look and feel good but I think unless I was an armour crewman, pilot or in some other restricted access job my weapon of choice would be a rifle (which have become shorter and more convenient). Apart from that I bet more people have been shot with pistols through mishandling accidents than have ever been shot in anger!

Lang..
I agree with you 110%..
I too had the pleasure to serve and was accutely aware of the Browings tendency to lay down withering amounts of 9MM hard ball ..striking anywhere but in the intended X...
I found that mine tended to jump up and to the left,when using the 9 MM military SMG ammo..
At 25 yards ..aiming at the far right of the belt line high usually got a hit in the X area..
That vastly improved when I hand loaded some lighter charges to control the blowback enough to work the action ,but take the antics out of the action..
It worked much better..better control and accuracy..

I had much better luck when I attached the shoulder stock(Chinese contract model,Post service days)
But I too prefered the FN...I blistered many a fore stock on the pop up range with a couple of my buddy range masters from the Queens Own Rifles..
It was excellent training for targets..but like you said..in a fire fight it takes lots of experience to work a fire arm accurately and control is the key..
spray and pray works but who knows til you are the one in the movie...

[Lang]

Originally Posted by Alex Blair

Hi Dave..
I had one of the Chinese Contract High Power Brownings made by Inglis and fired the Cdn.Military ammunition that was designed for the Stirling Sten gun..
the 9MM parabellum round was pretty hot..No problem with the Browning..I hand loaded also and cranked up some pretty hot stuff and not a problem either..
The High Power had a strong action and I never had a problem with it..
My High Power was right out of the old Military surplus stocks ,never issued and still had the cosmoline on it..
It was a beauty and still as good today and it always was..

Alex,

On this subject we once had someone bring down a German Luger and after using his dozen correct German WW2 rounds put in our standard 9mm. It worked just fine but the extra power slammed the action back something fierce. We all had a go but if it had been my weapon I would have called a halt early - I am sure it was much more rattley when we were finished than when we started!

[cletrac (RIP)]

I've always been more of the marksman than the "wall of lead" shooter. I used to shoot thousands of rounds through my surplus 38 Enfield and could hit a man size target pretty well every shot at 100 yards. It's all about knowing where it hits and making allowances.
When I think of the hundreds of deer and the like that I've taken with my 7mm Remington, most of them are out in the 400 to 500 yard range and running in the open fields.

[Lang]

David,

I am sure you are a fine marksman (I will up my free shot bet to you to $101) but these weapons were made to be used by everyone. Having seen around 500 people in the same controlled circumstances learning to use them my comments are unchanged. I am sure the average Canadian 20 year old is no better natural marksman than an Australian, Zulu or Mongolian 20 year old.

The average soldier gets maybe 15 rounds to learn the weapon and probably never sees one fired again in service. Those whose job has pistols as a possible part of their combat equipment get one or two days a year on the pistol range (unless they are training for or actually on deployment).

Add to this the fact you are not firing at a motionless bit of cardboard, there is all the excitement, fear, colour and movement which goes with using a pistol in action, I reckon there would have been hundreds of thousands-millions?- of "aimed" rounds coming from S&W (and any other make) pistol that arrived anywhere but the intended target.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Lang

The average soldier gets maybe 15 rounds to learn the weapon and probably never sees one fired again in service. Those whose job has pistols as a possible part of their combat equipment get one or two days a year on the pistol range (unless they are training for or actually on deployment).

Obviously the Aus and Canadian armies think alike. For many years I didn't have to fire unless I wanted. Nowadays, my trade is a noncombat inside work support trade (not saying too much on the internet). My annual qual is about 60 rds on a very manageable course of fire. Unless I get a bad rifle, I invariably fire the highest possible score. Last year I fired rifle and pistol quals, and had top score in both. (Some of Blackie's genes are carried through the greatgrandparent's line.) Before this last deployment, the course of fire included firing with a gas mask at 100yds, standing to kneeling snaps, and a 200 to 100 run down. The outside the wire trades have two more qual levels including nights, positions, fire and movement.

[malcolm erik bogaert]

just had a thought how about an international pistol/rifle competition for members with the different countries fielding a team!winning team gets MLU cup....dont fancy my chances against chap who can hit a running dear with an old 7mm Ive used the 308 remington on red dear and fallow...once whilst on a shoot i discovered some mags of 7.62 AP in the vehicle...ranger asked me to demonstrate them on an old stone wall with the SLR...I have to tell you there is now no stone wall who would fund the competition I dont know!make a good holiday with like minded chaps malcolm