Sand chains...

[Rolf S. Ask]

The picture shows a dessert chain (part of...) that someone came with at a MV-meeting this summer. He promissed to look for one or two complete ones he tought he had somewhere. He told us that it is a "dessert chain" or "sand chain", and it seems a bit strange such items surfacing here in cold Norway. The explanation must be that they was left in the vehicles (part of the standard equipment) when the CMP's was sold from Canada to Norway after the war, and then was laying around at some military work shops.
But I can not remember ever seen anyone of them used in any film clips or any pictures. Was this standard equipment in/on vehicles delivered to the dessert campains? How common are they? And anyone who can tell us abouth the use of them? Where they usefull at all??

Rolf

PS: Vic I do think my softweare is OK now, so I will send you some pictures of the wireless I have sometime in the evening

[Rolf S. Ask]

maybe this is a better angel....

[Vic Eaton]

HELLO AGAIN ROLF
Thats a new one on me ,never heard of sand chains or seen anything like them . vic uk

[Lars Ulvestad]

when the CMP's was sold from Canada to Norway after the war

Rolf,

I am very interested to know your source of information regarding a norwegian purchase of CMP's after the war. I have information that Norway received military equipment including vehicles (Dodge D3/4APT and Diamond T 975/975A) from Canada through MDAP/MAP after the formation of NATO. So far I have not found information that we received or purchased CMP's from Canada, information about your source(s) would be most welcome



The chains looks interesting, I have never seen such type of construction of the transverse chain before, only plain or studded transverse chains to help offroad traction or for winter use. But sand/desert tyres have a shallow tread to avoid digging when driving on sand. With these chains the tyres will start to dig into the ground. If they are intended for desert use they must be to improve traction on hard surfaces : :

[Rolf S. Ask]

Hello Lars

I have not any source of Norway actually buying the CMP's, but have on several vehicles and trailers stenciled: "North Atlantic Treaty Organisation Aid to The Norwegian Army From The Canadian Army" and the maple leaf. Alll letters in capitol and 1 " size. So I asumed Norway had to pay a little for them. I do know Norway "had to" buy vehicles from England when the brigades in Germany after the war was taking over. And that some of these vehilces ended in Norway. I am quit sure that Norway also brought both english and canadian vehicles down to Germany from Norway.
But this is an interessting topic and well worth a study during the winter. I will inform you as soon as I find something. I will check with our defense museum, and try to have a day or two there to look for information. I have a sales contrackt from the army to a sivilian buyer of one of my C30's and there is nothing there saying these vehicles "going true custom" when sold from the army, as on the american vehicles (Dodge's, GMC's and others).

Regarding your input on the chains I do agree. It seems a bit strange to have such "heavy" chains in loose sand. But for sure, they are not made for ice and snow
Anyone lese having any input??

Rolf

[Lars Ulvestad]

Hello Rolf,

Intersting information about the CMP's, I have seen the stenciled text with the Maple Leaf on Dodge D3/4APT and Diamond T's in Norway but never on CMP's.

I will be away for a few days, but when back I will look up some information on the supply of CMP's from UK to Norway.

[Rolf S. Ask]

Sounds great Lars. Will be interessting to find info on both english and canadian vehicles and equipment comming to Norway.
The jeep we have, came to Norway with "The Red Devils" in may 1945. It even had the bars cut out in the front (but replasements welded in place). And most of (if not all of them) the vehicles the english brought over her in 45, was left here.

Rolf

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Rolf S. Ask
It seems a bit strange to have such "heavy" chains in loose sand. But for sure, they are not made for ice and snow
Anyone lese having any input??

Rolf,

An uncle of mine lived in Uganda for a while. He bought a VW van which came with mud chains to help the VW through patches of mud after heavy rains. When he got back to Europe he took the VW with him and used the mud chains with good effect in the snow when skiing in France.
So the chains you saw might actually be mud chains instead of snow chains?

Regards,
Hanno

[Rolf S. Ask]

yeah they would for sure make a good grip in mud.....

BTW did you get a mail from me the other day? I am not sure my mail program is ok..

Rolf

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Rolf,

Have a look at this picture:

and compare the snow chains(?) on this Humber Mk.4 with the one you pictured.

Source: http://www.britishpathe.com/, still from 2143.15 | INVASION SCENES - EUROPE (ref. missing-lynx.com > Discussion Groups > Allied WWII > Brit stuff in snowy landscape (6 pics))

Regards,
Hanno

[Rolf S. Ask]

there they are....

So they where (also) used on mud & snow. But I find it a bit strange that we don't know more abouth them. If they were good on such conditions, ie. snow on not frozen ground (which soon will turn in to a mudhole when driving in it), they for sure would have been tested out here in Norway, and I also think the Canadian would have used them after the war. Just think of the conditions on the roads in springtime russia, and it was plenty of bad roads in Norway too.

Rolf

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Rolf S. Ask
But I find it a bit strange that we don't know more abouth them. If they were good on such conditions, ie. snow on not frozen ground (which soon will turn in to a mudhole when driving in it), they for sure would have been tested out here in Norway, and I also think the Canadian would have used them after the war. Just think of the conditions on the roads in springtime russia, and it was plenty of bad roads in Norway too.

Rolf,

I agree, they don't look like anything I have ever seen. But apparently they were actually meant as snow chains, that would explain why some of them ended up in Norway with the collector you mentioned. As they are such a rare sight he possibly thought they were sand chains.

Regards,
Hanno

[Rolf S. Ask]

if he just tought they were "sand chains" because he has 15+ Years in the Norwegian Army on his record.....
But then again, if they found the chains not useful in Norway, they would probarbly trow them away very early in the 50's or late 40's....... and thats why nobody remembers them.

Rolf

BTW it would be strange if there is no records of tests with different chains used in winterexercises... Perhaps there are somone in Canada who knows of any records on this?

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Rolf S. Ask
there they are....

So they where (also) used on mud & snow. But I find it a bit strange that we don't know more about them.

Rolf and Hanno,
These are Parsons "Oriam" type non-skid chains. Parsons were a well known British maker of tyre chains. They were British Army issue along with the normal types of chains, ie. no pads. They were particularly good in very soft ground as the action of the pads was comparable to that of a track shoe grouser. These chains could be used on sand, mud, slippery grass, snow, ice, etc.

Richard

[Rolf S. Ask]

I wouldn't try them on our icey roads.....
But thank you Richard. Perhaps it would be smart to look for a set, just to have them in the pile of "usefull stuff".

Rolf

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Richard,

Thanks for clearing this up - all this contemplating about its use and then it turns out this is a sand-, mud-, slippery grass-, snow-, ice- and etc-chain!

Are any of these still around?

Hanno

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Are any of these still around?

Hanno,
Not seen any,......... sounds like Norway is the place to look

Richard

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
Not seen any,......... sounds like Norway is the place to look

Richard,

Rolf does seem to be convinced these Oriam type chains are no good on their icy roads ... so here's hoping the Norwegian Army stashed their allotment away in some corner ... so Rolf can find them now that he knows what they are ...

Hanno

[Alex Blair (RIP)]

Originally posted by Lars Ulvestad
Hello Rolf,

Intersting information about the CMP's, I have seen the stenciled text with the Maple Leaf on Dodge D3/4APT and Diamond T's in Norway but never on CMP's.

I will be away for a few days, but when back I will look up some information on the supply of CMP's from UK to Norway.

WE have a friend ,Dan McCaw from Coe Hill who would like to do up a D3/4apt up as a navy shore patrol WW2 rig..He has the light and siren and was looking for locations and colour and markings.....Can any one suggest a fix or lead the way to finding the answers..??
I remember someone posting a picture of a navy unit some time back but can't find it in the archives.
I think he was from the Ottawa area.

[Kuno]

It does not make any sense to use chains in the soft sand. Even tyres with a deep profile are the wrong choice in soft sand. The effect is only, that the wheels dig in!

To compare: The real sand-tyres have even NO profile (except about 4 longitudinal lines).

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Kuno
It does not make any sense to use chains in the soft sand. Even tyres with a deep profile are the wrong choice in soft sand. The effect is only, that the wheels dig in!

To compare: The real sand-tyres have even NO profile (except about 4 longitudinal lines).

Hi Kuno,

In my message previously, I was quoting from the wartime British Army recovery book on non-skid chains, related to this particular type chain, the Parsons "Oriam" when it stated that they could be used on sand, mud, slippery grass, snow, ice, etc.

Having driven in desert conditions, I accept what you say, a non-aggresive tyre performs better, thus a chain would agravate the situation.

Richard

[Kuno]

Although it makes no sense to use such chains in the sand....I still could imagine, that the Desert-Forces had such chains. In wintertime, mainly in the "Green Mountain Area" of Libya you can have unbelievable mud!

Imagine the non-asphalted tracks, used by a huge amount of trucks...

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I would be very interested to find out if the British Ministry of Supply sold suplus CMPs to NATO countries including Norway, say post-1948. I know that the M of S had a contract with companies such as Lincoln Cars Limited the Ford subsidiary, who refurbished Ford V-8s until around 1951 for further use in Carriers, marine cratf, generators, etc. and presumably Ford trucks. A clue is that GM LImited in Southampton had a contract with the Ministry to refurbish military style oil bath air cleaners until around 1954, possibly later. These would probably have been AC items.

Another company that was involved with military Ford V-8s was Sydney Allard's Adlards Limited. That is how Mr Allard ended up with ex-military V-8s that he installed in Allard cars. I can imagine that the M of S contracted to refurbish CMPs which were then sold to NATO countries, Switzerland, S America et al.

[Lars Ulvestad]

David,

I will try to find some more exact information about the norwegian postwar purchase of CMP's for you, but as I will be away from home and my bookshelf for most of the next two weeks it will take some time.

Norway purchased equipment for two "reduced" infantry divisions from UK just after the war - some of the vehicles was left out because of the large amount of ex-German vehicles available in Norway after a force of 360.000 Germans had surrendered in Norway at VE-day.

I know that the norwegian army purchased 120 CGT/FGT's from MOD a little later - they were refurbished in UK for norwegian expences.

And as a agreement made with UK in the beginning of 1945 Norway would participate in the occupation of Germany with a reduced infantry division - it was reduced to a brigade before the agreement was signed postwar, under command of BAOR. This occupation brigade was equipped by UK/BAOR, this included all equipment, also equipment and vehicles for training purposes in Norway, for a capitation rate of 10 shillings/man/day. As a part of the deal all the equipment including vehicles became norwegian property after five years. All the equipment was brought back to Norway when the brigade was terminated in April 1953.

More details/pics to follow

[Bob Carriere]

I have seen similar chain on logging tractors ... we call them skidders.
Some have a protruding 8 or 10 inch ring others have these pads....... could have been some old style chain from the late 1950s...... always beleived they were made that way to withstand the erosive wear on the chains in semi-rocky or gravelly ground or even short runs on paved roads.

Must be someone in logging country on Canada that can shed more light on these chains......

Bob C.

[cletrac (RIP)]

I almost wish I lived somewhere that nobody knows what tire chains are! They used to be the only way to get to town, up to, oh, the early '60's or so. Mud , snow or ice just don't matter when you're "chained up"! But boy, they're hell on roads. The oilfield guys have to pull the chains off to cross any blacktop roads, then chain up again on the other side. And it's true that they're less than useless in dry sand.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
These are Parsons "Oriam" type non-skid chains. Parsons were a well known British maker of tyre chains. They were British Army issue along with the normal types of chains, ie. no pads. They were particularly good in very soft ground as the action of the pads was comparable to that of a track shoe grouser. These chains could be used on sand, mud, slippery grass, snow, ice, etc.

Parsons "Oriam" type non-skid chains in use to battle Italian mud (source).

[Ken Hughes]

hellow hanno i have a full set of those chains,x4.
if i remember there is a small brass plate on them that has the makers name and made in england on it
i will check tomorrow,sorry cant do photo as yet.

[Ken Hughes]

well i had a look and found the brass disc on one,it reads
( on one side) 1050x16 tyres w.d.81.
and on the other side reads stoufort on severn parsons chain co Ltd
i think its stoufort , my eyesite is not good these days.

[Ken Hughes]

also the new zealand monkey face truck in Italy with the chain on the left front wheel,may have belonged to , HQ divisional artillery, 5th field regiment, red/blue , No 71.
from jeff plowmans book, kiwi armour,4th armoured brigade in Italy.