cab 12 roof

[Mike Kelly]

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Vintage-T...oAAOSwyQtV1r~q

nice straight roof but the price

[Keith Webb]

As someone informed the seller it is a Chev cab 12 roof, the description of 'solid' applies to all but the lower back which has significant rust. You would have to be desperate I think!

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Vintage-T...oAAOSwyQtV1r~q

nice straight roof but the price

[Mike Cecil]

'scuse my ignorance, but what identifies it as a Chev roof, rather than a Ford cab 12 roof?

The absence of a hatch is interesting in the Australian context: the initial import of Cab 12s (all Ford F60L) had the roof punched by Ford (Aust) and a pressed steel hatch rim installed by welding (and pretty rough it was, too). The hatch was dimensionally smaller than the later Cab 13 hatch of similar pressed metal design.

I agree with Keith: the usual 'red ants' along the bottom bracket to roof interface detract substantially from its $$ value!

Mike

[Wayne Henderson]

Hi Mike and Keith,
This roof appears to be the property of a person of the hot rod variety.
Rust and dents in panels is added value, this would make a very good roof for any "rat rod" pickup as it is.

[Keith Webb]

I'm calling 'Chev' on the balance of probability given I don't remember seeing any Ford roofs here without the hatch - I don't know whether there are any other physical differences - perhaps our Canadian experts can fill us in?

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

'scuse my ignorance, but what identifies it as a Chev roof, rather than a Ford cab 12 roof?

The absence of a hatch is interesting in the Australian context: the initial import of Cab 12s (all Ford F60L) had the roof punched by Ford (Aust) and a pressed steel hatch rim installed by welding (and pretty rough it was, too). The hatch was dimensionally smaller than the later Cab 13 hatch of similar pressed metal design.

I agree with Keith: the usual 'red ants' along the bottom bracket to roof interface detract substantially from its $$ value!

Mike

[Mike Cecil]

Good call, Keith: if my memory serves me correctly, the only Ford Cab 12 roof panels I've ever seen without the hatch cut into them were in a pile of 'new'/unused parts under the trees in the quarry at Hughes (but all way beyond restoration by then) - you probably have some images of same?

Mike

[Keith Webb]

I don't think I ever saw or photographed those - there were some NOS doors right near the end, not sure who got those. There was one cab 12 roof but it was a used one with the back cut out for mobile crane use.

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

Good call, Keith: if my memory serves me correctly, the only Ford Cab 12 roof panels I've ever seen without the hatch cut into them were in a pile of 'new'/unused parts under the trees in the quarry at Hughes (but all way beyond restoration by then) - you probably have some images of same?

Mike

[cletrac (RIP)]

I checked my pictures and no cab 11s with roof hatches and three cab 12s with them. This is out of a couple hundred pictures. I don't think I've ever seen a cab 11 or 12 with a roof hatch.

[Keith Webb]

Here's my F60L Cab 12 with a typical Australian manufactured and fitted hatch. So now you can say you've seen one! If you come to Australia you can see lots more

Originally Posted by cletrac

I checked my pictures and no cab 11s with roof hatches and three cab 12s with them. This is out of a couple hundred pictures. I don't think I've ever seen a cab 11 or 12 with a roof hatch.

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

I don't remember seeing any Ford roofs here without the hatch

This stems from CMP 3-tonner introduction in mid-late '41, whereby 8th Army in Egypt appears to have received exclusively Chevs, while Australia received exclusively Fords. Clearly Australia received priority in this respect! Upon arrival the Fords were fitted with roof hatch as Mike describes (standard MCP hatch) while AIF units in ME were issued only hatchless Chevs. Of course, the policy to exclude Chevs from Australia unravelled when Japan entered the war, and returning ME Divisions were forced to bring Chevs onto the mainland. Most of these hatchless Middle East arrivals were promptly expelled offshore to New Guinea, but a small number gained permanent residence, and their hatchlessness can still be seen today:









Noticeable in the convoy through Adelaide are two different colours, these being KG3 (indicating initial deliveries) and BSC 61 Light Stone (indicating repaint or later production). The British colour is much more yellow than ASC Light Stone N (as can be seen on NOS parts) and is evident as production colour on this roof under the head protection pad:





Of course, while it can be stated with statistical confidence that this roof is of Chev origin, the possibility of Ford origin cannot be excluded entirely. We know of ex-ME F8 and F15 arrivals in '42, and there may also have been refugee cargo, as the AWM FAT might suggest. Furthermore it's quite likely 9th Div brought some Cab 12 Fords back in early 1943, by which time the F60L was plentiful in ME. Indeed, it would appear that F60L deliveries commenced early enough for the odd 7th Div unit to benefit prior to departure, notably Mobile Laundry as recorded here:

http://www.2nd7thcavalry.com/cobbforce/

"Cobb Force was our title, but we were drawn mainly from my own unit, 7 Division Cavalry Regiment, with attached people and vehicles from Signals, Medical, Engineers, Artillery - and even 7 Division Mobile Laundry. That ludicrous association came about because all the division's transport had been well and truly clapped out by hard Middle East service. The one exception was the laundry, and about a dozen of its vehicles in mint condition came to us complete with drivers."

Obviously such a gruelling expedition to the northernmost tip of Australia could not be contemplated in Chevs, and accordingly: "All vehicles were powered by the side-valve Ford V8 engine, and all had the four speed crash-type Ford truck gearbox except the utility".

Naturally it was Ford CMPs which carried all fuel and supplies for the two month trip: "we had to carry everything that we needed, and that meant a full load on the most important of the vehicles we took, the Canadian-made Fords built to British War Department specifications."

Needless to say they all performed marvellously, and when our intrepid expeditioners finally "stood on the very northernmost tip of mainland Australia and looked out over the sparkling waters of the Endeavour Strait", it is noted that "in the scrub around the nearby Somerset telegraph booster station were the 12 four-wheel-drive Army three tonners."

Perhaps I digress slightly but only to remind ourselves that Cab 12 Fords did arrive in small numbers from ME.

[Mike Kelly]

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

We know of ex-ME F8 and F15 arrivals in '42,

I know of a F8 in the Sydney area, but I've never heard of another in Australia.

Has anyone got documents ... how many F8's did we get ?

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

Has anyone got documents ... how many F8's did we get ?

Good question Mike, would they appear in AWM 126 series?

[Tony Wheeler]

Another confounding factor may be retrofitted hatched roof. If this was Australian Army practice on hatchless CMPs retained in service we'd have no way of recognizing ex-ME Cab 12 F60L in Australia. This may explain our failure to observe a single example in all these years.

[Keith Webb]

Another possibility is they received Ford roofs during a rebuild if the Chev ones had fatigued sufficiently - it was a design that fostered splits and cracks.

Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler

Another confounding factor may be retrofitted hatched roof. If this was Australian Army practice on hatchless CMPs retained in service we'd have no way of recognizing ex-ME Cab 12 F60L in Australia. This may explain our failure to observe a single example in all these years.

Attachment 82101

Attachment 82102

[Mike Cecil]

"Good question Mike, would they appear in AWM 126 series?"

Only if they received an Australian Commonwealth Uniform Registration scheme registration number, commonly known as the 'ARN'.

If the vehicle served only under its Brit number, then no, not listed in AWM126.

Mike

[Mike Kelly]

The F8 owner in NSW rang me some years ago, a well known collector . He was asking about where to buy 900-13 tyres . Mike

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

Another possibility is they received Ford roofs during a rebuild if the Chev ones had fatigued sufficiently - it was a design that fostered splits and cracks.

Yes that seems more likely Keith. The problem is described in Cobb Force accounts:

"We were in the 'melon hole' country, miles and miles of deep, eroded holes that were impossible to dodge. In creeping in and out of these the chassis frames were twisted so cruelly that the simple cabs with which they were fitted were also distorted and a number of windscreen standards were strained and broken. Happily the cab tops were detachable, so we took them off to take the strain from the windscreens and left them at the side of the track to be picked up again on our return journey."

Evidently they left a pile of bonnets by the side of track too!

http://www.2nd7thcavalry.com/cobbforce/

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

"Good question Mike, would they appear in AWM 126 series?"

Only if they received an Australian Commonwealth Uniform Registration scheme registration number, commonly known as the 'ARN'.

If the vehicle served only under its Brit number, then no, not listed in AWM126.

Mike

Thanks Mike, I suspected that may be the case.

Speaking of registration schemes I've been meaning to ask you about ARN 153403 which appears on one of my early production F60S trucks. It's outside the usual 13XXXX block which I understand to be Ford allocation at the time. This has me rather intrigued, as does the original cab paintwork which appears to be Light Stone or similar. I'm interested to get your thoughts and hoping you may have some record of this vehicle. In fact I have two of them from the same contract, both with data plates. Any info would be greatly appreciated as I'm hoping to restore ARN 153403.

Cheers,
Tony

[Keith Webb]

Here's one I photographed at Hughes Trading around 2000 - no hatch but then again there was no evidence of the truck it came from either.

Also in reference to Ford block allocations I had a F60L Cab 13 Portee (or at least parts of it) which was I think 52003 or 53002 - in any case there were many early ones in that block, all of which makes your 153403 all the more unusual.

[Mike Cecil]

Tony,

The Ford F60S (cab 13) ARN 153403 was a 7 ton semi trailer prime mover. It is one of a mixed group of C60S and F60S trucks fitted with McGrath trailers. Most were disposed of as complete units (truck and trailer combined) in the early 1960s.

There are lots of Ford CMPs in this and later series, eg
152xxx has No.2 ambulances
153xxx has prime movers and fire tenders
159xxx has No.2 Ambulances
and the 16xxxx series, mostly in the lower series 160xxx to 162xxx, has derricks, recuperators, ambulances and tippers.

These later series of CMPs are almost invariably registrations of specialist vehicle types, rather than GS. I suspect because the special body types were slower into production - the design work, prototype stage, and so on, taking time to complete and be approved before production (and therefore delivery) commenced.

With regard to an F60S with chassis/engine 3G0209F, I have no records showing a 3G prefix engine number that low.

Mike

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

The Ford F60S (cab 13) ARN 153403 was a 7 ton semi trailer prime mover. It is one of a mixed group of C60S and F60S trucks fitted with McGrath trailers.

Thanks very much Mike. I never would have guessed semi-trailer! Do you have any thoughts about the colour scheme? It appears on this Chev semi as well.

Originally Posted by Mike Cecil

These later series of CMPs are almost invariably registrations of specialist vehicle types, rather than GS. I suspect because the special body types were slower into production - the design work, prototype stage, and so on, taking time to complete and be approved before production (and therefore delivery) commenced.

I'm sure you're right Mike. Something similar seems to have occurred with the No.9 gun tractors, ie. chassis received in '42 but vehicles not built until '43-'44 (except of course the famous ARN 132141 seen at Wesley, presumably pilot vehicle...?)

[Mike Cecil]

Tony,

No, no idea about the sand (lower) coat, but your example has the ARN on the post-war DBG, which is what would be expected for a vehicle still in service up to the early 1960s.

Mike

[Tony Wheeler]

This one in Borneo appears to be sand colour although caption mentions red lead.

LABUAN ISLAND, NORTH WEST BORNEO 1945-10-06. THE CAMP OF 2/72ND LIGHT AID DETACHMENT ATTACHED TO THE 2/24TH FIELD PARK COMPANY. A SEMI TRAILER BEING PAINTED WITH RED LEAD IS ON THE RAMP. SX27206 CAPTAIN A. C. J. BRUCE, COMMANDING OFFICER OF THE 2/72ND LIGHT AID DETACHMENT IS ON THE LEFT.

[Howard]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

...given I don't remember seeing any Ford roofs here without the hatch...

Ahem.