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  #1  
Old 08-12-06, 01:13
DITNER, S.M. DITNER, S.M. is offline
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Default 4th PLDG Cloth Shoulder Insignia

Gentlemen:

Could someone assist me with a uniform-related question?


Would the 4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards regimental shoulder badges used during the Second World War be:

-Canvas. Arch (Half Circle) Shape.

-Black background (possibly dark blue) with white "4 P.L.D.G" stitched in.

-What might someone expect to pay for this badge?

Would appreciate any insight as to above issues. I am putting together a shadow-box for a relative KIA with 4th PLDG, Italy 1945.

Cheers
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  #2  
Old 09-12-06, 18:05
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Default Re: 4th PLDG Cloth Shoulder Insignia

Quote:
Originally posted by DITNER, S.M. Would the 4th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards regimental shoulder badges used during the Second World War be:
-Canvas. Arch (Half Circle) Shape.
-Black background (possibly dark blue) with white "4 P.L.D.G" stitched in.
-What might someone expect to pay for this badge?
I might be able to help you with two of your questions (note, I say might!)

Of the back ground I would say blue, as the official Blazon lists "Azure" as the colour.

As to the price I would think you should be able find one on ebay for <10.00. Reason I say this is because I log onto ebay daily, not just to look for items to purchase but also to see what trends in collecting are developing. e.g.: 1st Cdn Para Brigade battle dress blouses have tripled in selling price. The most recent one sold for over $3,000.00usd!! What I call the "Premium" regimental shoulder badges, i.e. Regiments of the 7th, 8th, and 9th Canadian Infantry Brigades, the Mac-Paps, the Pickelies, the regiments that fought in Hong Kong, etc. (gentlemen, please don't jump all over me if I haven't listed your favourite regiment. Notice I haven't included the R.C.E's!) don't usually sell more than $20.00.

There are a couple of 4th PLDG items for sale now on ebay. A cap badge with an asking bid of 4.99 and a Christmas post card.
Hope this info helps!


CHIMO!
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  #3  
Old 10-12-06, 15:07
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Bill Alexander Bill Alexander is offline
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Default Values

Hi, The titles for the 4 PLDG's were produced in printed canvas pattern and embroidered melton pattern. The proper colour is white on dark blue (royal blue). Printed (or canvas) titles demand a premium price compared to the melton or embroidered type. The abbreviated 4 PLDG pattern for WW2, in either material, is not a commonly found item. The long spelled out title is more common and to my knowledge only found in the English pattern starch back or the embroidered melton wool pattern.
The use of the abbreviated and the long form titles appears to have changed about the time the 4 PLDG were changed back to an armoured car regiment from an infantry battalion. (In Italy the Plugs started out as the 1st Canadian Infantry Division armoured car recce regiment and then were converted to infantry from July 1944 until the transfer to Northwest Europe in March 1945.)
Values on items are very difficult to suggest. There is a strong demand for canvas / printed titles at this point in time, and they are in the $50 + range for many of the wartime Canadian regiments. Melton or starch backs sell for considerably less.
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Old 10-12-06, 17:14
DITNER, S.M. DITNER, S.M. is offline
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Default 4th PLDG Shoulder Badge

Mr. Alexander:

You have certainly addressed all of my queries. The badge in question is a canvas back, in good condition and the price, based on your information, is commensurate.

I appreciate you taking the time to provide me with this.

Cheers
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  #5  
Old 29-12-06, 07:28
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Michael Reintjes Michael Reintjes is offline
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Here are some WW2 Titles...have one other abbreviated in wool as well.....this unit has alot of titles...
Click image for larger version

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Here is an actual Battledress to the 4 PLDG....

Mike

Click image for larger version

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  #6  
Old 30-12-06, 19:25
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Default Re: PLDG BATTLEDRESS

Quote:
Originally posted by Michael Reintjes
Here is an actual Battledress to the 4 PLDG....

It's not very often that one sees a Battle Dress blouse with a Good Conduct badge still attached. According to Michael Dorosh, very few Jr. Ranks survived the years stationed in England before D Day with their service records unblemished. I know I wouldn't have been eligible for one!

P.S. For the PLDG aficianados, there is another PLDG cap badge presently for sale on ebay. Opening bid 4.99 with no reserve.
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  #7  
Old 30-12-06, 20:05
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Default More IV PLDG cloth

To add to Mike's images, here are some of the varieties of IV PLDG cloth and canvas titles as worn. The bottom image contains a repro (reunion?) title and the post war battledress title. To the best of my knowledge all of the titles in the first image are WW2 issue.

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  #8  
Old 30-12-06, 23:22
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Michael Reintjes Michael Reintjes is offline
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Great images Bill....Is that image 3rd from the bottom a glueback? Do you know of any other patterns of PLDG in Glueback? Hope you had a great Christmas,Happy New Year Bill, Cheers ,mike.
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  #9  
Old 31-12-06, 03:22
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Default Seasons Greetings

Hi Mike, Seasons Greetings to you as well. Hope to see you at the CSMMI / MCC of C Convention in St kits in August.
Best wishes to all Maple Leaf Up urz
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  #10  
Old 21-01-07, 15:57
Dwayne Hordij Dwayne Hordij is offline
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Default 4 PLDG in Italy

Here is a brassard that would have been worn by the unit during the summers in Italy.
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4pldg brassard.jpg  
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  #11  
Old 29-10-15, 20:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwayne Hordij View Post
Here is a brassard that would have been worn by the unit during the summers in Italy.
How would one know what the red/orange square sewn on, means? I understand the 4PLDG is from Ottawa, but the square??
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  #12  
Old 29-10-15, 20:25
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The red rectangle is the formation sign for 1 Cdn Infantry Division. The 4 PLDG were the recce regiment for that division. In the summer of 1944 the Plugs were converted to infantry and served in 5 Cdn Armoured Division, 12 Cdn Infantry Bde until the Canadians were moved to North West Europe in the late winter of 1945. Then they were reconverted to their recce role in 1 CID.
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  #13  
Old 30-10-15, 00:26
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Rick Gregoire Rick Gregoire is offline
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Txs Bill, for the very knowledgable answer.

Do you know a way I could find more info on my Father regarding his Army Tenure?

All I know is he was a WW2 Sgt in the Princess Louise Dragoon Guards, but cannot find any info anywhere?

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  #14  
Old 30-10-15, 00:40
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Bill Alexander Bill Alexander is offline
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As his son, you can access his service records from Library and Archives Canada. You will need to make an application for the files or you can hire a researcher. If you are doing the request yourself, I would reccomend a Freedom of Information request. It comes back much quicker.
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  #15  
Old 31-10-15, 04:50
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Txs for that Bill
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  #16  
Old 18-09-17, 18:31
Brian H Brian H is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Alexander View Post
The use of the abbreviated and the long form titles appears to have changed about the time the 4 PLDG were changed back to an armoured car regiment from an infantry battalion. (In Italy the Plugs started out as the 1st Canadian Infantry Division armoured car recce regiment and then were converted to infantry from July 1944 until the transfer to Northwest Europe in March 1945.)
I know this an old post by Bill, but I thought I could add my .2 cents. My Grandfather served with the PLDG in NW Europe. He brought back two canvas 4 PLDG shoulder titles. I assumed they were issued to him at the time of him joining the Regiment in March 45 however, they could have easily been souvenirs from older members of the regiment. Or maybe he was issued old titles while in England and waiting to join the regiment? Is there any proof of mixed title use in 45 possibly due to shortage of the full abbreviated versions?
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  #17  
Old 19-09-17, 14:27
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Bill Alexander Bill Alexander is offline
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Hello Brian, Since that posting in 2006, new information has changed the story. The abbreviated titles, either embroidered or printed were the only authorized pattern until the summer of 1945. The initial issue of titles for 1 CID were embroidered titles circa 1941, replaced by printed pattern sometime in 1943. The "rules" were that embroidered titles were to be used up before printed were issued, but that was only partially followed. Some personnel were issued printed insignia in their reinforcement depots and other soldiers kept embroidered abbreviated titles for their best BD. The printed titles were almost universally detested by soldiers. They faded and frayed and did not look as nice as the embroidered pattern. The printed pattern was the only authorized issue pattern of title from 1943 through the end of the war.
In the summer of 1945, the IV PLDG applied for a new title, fully spelled out. The ones illustrated on Mike Reintjes' post were a British made pattern acquired by the Regiment at their expense. It was not authorized as CMHQ inidcated the unit was being repatriated to Canada. Of interest, there are images of the IV PLDG wearing full titles in the immediate post war era, and then wearing the abbreviated title circa 1948-49.
To make a long answer short, the correct titles were the ones you found in your grandfather's accumulation.
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  #18  
Old 20-09-17, 02:30
Bruce Parker Bruce Parker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Alexander View Post
Hello Brian, Since that posting in 2006, new information has changed the story. The abbreviated titles, either embroidered or printed were the only authorized pattern until the summer of 1945. The initial issue of titles for 1 CID were embroidered titles circa 1941, replaced by printed pattern sometime in 1943. The "rules" were that embroidered titles were to be used up before printed were issued, but that was only partially followed. Some personnel were issued printed insignia in their reinforcement depots and other soldiers kept embroidered abbreviated titles for their best BD. The printed titles were almost universally detested by soldiers. They faded and frayed and did not look as nice as the embroidered pattern. The printed pattern was the only authorized issue pattern of title from 1943 through the end of the war.
In the summer of 1945, the IV PLDG applied for a new title, fully spelled out. The ones illustrated on Mike Reintjes' post were a British made pattern acquired by the Regiment at their expense. It was not authorized as CMHQ inidcated the unit was being repatriated to Canada. Of interest, there are images of the IV PLDG wearing full titles in the immediate post war era, and then wearing the abbreviated title circa 1948-49.
To make a long answer short, the correct titles were the ones you found in your grandfather's accumulation.
So it follows that Michael's battledress with the fully spelled our regimental name in post 5 is a classic 'going home' battledress?
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  #19  
Old 20-09-17, 03:32
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Returning Home BD

Yes, the badged BD held in museums and private collections are the uniforms worn for the return home and do not necessarily reflect insignia that was worn earlier in the war.
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Old 20-09-17, 21:28
Brian H Brian H is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Alexander View Post
Hello Brian, Since that posting in 2006, new information has changed the story. The abbreviated titles, either embroidered or printed were the only authorized pattern until the summer of 1945. The initial issue of titles for 1 CID were embroidered titles circa 1941, replaced by printed pattern sometime in 1943. The "rules" were that embroidered titles were to be used up before printed were issued, but that was only partially followed. Some personnel were issued printed insignia in their reinforcement depots and other soldiers kept embroidered abbreviated titles for their best BD. The printed titles were almost universally detested by soldiers. They faded and frayed and did not look as nice as the embroidered pattern. The printed pattern was the only authorized issue pattern of title from 1943 through the end of the war.
In the summer of 1945, the IV PLDG applied for a new title, fully spelled out. The ones illustrated on Mike Reintjes' post were a British made pattern acquired by the Regiment at their expense. It was not authorized as CMHQ inidcated the unit was being repatriated to Canada. Of interest, there are images of the IV PLDG wearing full titles in the immediate post war era, and then wearing the abbreviated title circa 1948-49.
To make a long answer short, the correct titles were the ones you found in your grandfather's accumulation.
Thanks for that response and update Bill. I've found very little on the PLDG titles online and most I have been able to find, has been on this site. Cheers.
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  #21  
Old 28-10-17, 03:52
AlanOram AlanOram is offline
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Hello,
A huge thanks,
I joined the forum to see this thread fully. Was looking for images of 4PLDG on Google, an image posted was from this thread, lol. A group of us are reenacting the unit, here in Ottawa.
This information is a huge help, we went with the full name when we made shoulder flashes. Back to the drawing board!
Thanks again,
Alan
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