Canadian Motor Battalion using C15TA

[Julian Weber]

Do you have any info what Regiments in Italy were motorized?

So far I have info about the Westminster and the Perth.

The Perth went back to regular Inf before the Invasion of Sicily and never actually fought as Motor.

The Westies fought motorized in Italy (M3 Halftrack, M3 Scoutcar) but were converted back to an Infantry when they were reorganized into the 12th InfBr, their name kept the suffix (Motor) until the 50's though. Strange.

Are there other Motor Battalions I missed?

And also which of these Regiments or even just battalions was equipped with the Canadian C15TA armoured truck?


Thanks for the help,
Julian

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

The Perth Regiment was never motor, it was a standard infantry battalion, though in an armoured division. The "Motor' distinction only occurs in armoured divisions and therefore only happened twice for Canada: The Lake Superior Regiment in the 4th Armoured Division and the Westminster Regiment in the 5th. Of the two, only the 5th Division fought in Italy (the 4th landing in Normandy after D-Day). As you say, the shortage of infantry in Italy often led to armoured car or motor battalions being converted from their original role.

[Julian Weber]

So it could be possible, that a Regiment in the 1st Inf Div received the C15TAs as a "Lorried Infantry" without receiving the Motor distinction?

I quote from "The C15TA in Canadian Service" (by Roger Lucy):

Three each for an armoured brigade HQ, arnoured regiment, and armoured reconnaissance regiment (in both cases mainly to carry the assault troops).

Initially 53 were to be assigned to motor battalions, but their place was largely taken by half-tracks (at least in Northwest Europe, if not in Italy).

That reads to me as if the II and III Canadian Corps in NWE would have gotten the M5 Half Tracks (at least initially), but the Motor Battalions in Italy would have received the C15TA in late 44. BUT that is contradictory to the info that the only Motor Battalion in Italy was already converted to regular Infantry by then.

Or could it be that the Westies fought under Infantry doctrine with the 12 Inf Brig but were still equipped with the C15TA und thus were more of a "Lorried Infantry" that fought only dismounted and only used the armoured trucks to keep up with the armoured troups inbetween battles?

Thanks,
Julian

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Julian Weber

So it could be possible, that a Regiment in the 1st Inf Div received the C15TAs as a "Lorried Infantry" without receiving the Motor distinction?

I quote from "The C15TA in Canadian Service" (by Roger Lucy):

That reads to me as if the II and III Canadian Corps in NWE would have gotten the M5 Half Tracks (at least initially), but the Motor Battalions in Italy would have received the C15TA in late 44. BUT that is contradictory to the info that the only Motor Battalion in Italy was already converted to regular Infantry by then.

Or could it be that the Westies fought under Infantry doctrine with the 12 Inf Brig but were still equipped with the C15TA und thus were more of a "Lorried Infantry" that fought only dismounted and only used the armoured trucks to keep up with the armoured troups inbetween battles?

Thanks,
Julian

I stand to be corrected but I don't think C15TA's ever made it to Italy, at least not issued to Canadian troops. Even when the 1st Corps (comprised of the 1st Infantry & 5th Amoured Divisions and the 1st Armoured Brigade) moved to Holland for the last months of the war they tended to bring along their own vehicles (one example of this is that Mk.1* carrier production after 1943 went to Italy and Mk.II* to NW Europe. As a result Mk.1* carriers are only seen in NW Europe at the end of the war after the 1st Corps arrived there to join the rest of the Canadians in the 1st Army).

Photo evidence would suggest C15TA's were not widely available and/or issued to battalions in the Canadian 1st Army.

[Julian Weber]

You may be right. I invested quite some time already researching this, but have no evidence so far. But - and I know this is not much- in a Flames of war rulebook it says that Canadian Motor Platoons can choose to take C15TAs, which got me interested in the first place.

So you are suggesting that the only battlefields that the C15TA saw in WW2 was the Scheldt and Holland?

[Ed Storey]

Here is an Op GOLDFLAKE image at Marseilles of a Canadian C15TA.

[Julian Weber]

Thank you so much. Operation Goldflake was a good hint. Found another one:




Caption says: "Armoured truck of the 5th Canadian Armoured Division crossing the Guillotiers Bridge over the Rhone River during Operation Goldflake."
Source: https://legionmagazine.com/en/2012/0...te-february-2/


Do you have more info, Ed? What is the source of your picture?

[Ed Storey]

Library and Archives Canada (LAC).

[Julian Weber]

Another one from R.V. Lury;

By 6 June (1944), 596 C15TAs had been received by CAOS (Canadian army overseas) and, by early September, sufficient C15TAs were on hand that first Canadian Army could begin replacing its White Scout Cars and US half-tracks.
...
By 3 January 1945, CAOS had received 918 C15TAs, of which 445 had been issued to units in Italy and 465 in Northwest Europe.

That plus the goldflake pictures to me is enough evidence that there should've been enough to equip A Motor battalion and if it was A battalion, my best guess would still be the Westies.

I will still look out for something more conclusive but at least I feel confident enough that it is not going to be a dead end.

[Dan Martel]

Originally Posted by Julian Weber

So it could be possible, that a Regiment in the 1st Inf Div received the C15TAs as a "Lorried Infantry" without receiving the Motor distinction?

Lorried Infantry were not a part of the Infantry Division. They did not have organic transport like a Motorized Battalion. The Lorried Infantry battalion was organized identically to a Rifle battalion with the exception of having one extra vehicle and driver in each rifle company. They were found in the Armoured Division infantry brigade. They were each allocated an RASC/RCASC transport company from the Armoured Division divisional column.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Dan Martel]

Julian,

First let me apologize for my hurried response yesterday concerning Lorried Infantry. I didn't mean for it to sound so curt, but I found the time in which I had to respond cut short.

As to your request, I want to recommend a brilliant monograph written by Don Dingwall in 1999 called Canadian Armour in the Italian Campaign, Italy 1943-1945. It's sub-title is 'Canadian Vehicle Markings, Order of Battle, and War Establishments for 1st Canadian Corps and 1st Canadian Armoured Brigade.' It has the answers to most of your questions and is a gold mine of information on Canadian armour in Italy.

I quote from page 6 about the White Scout Car in the Motor Battalion:

White Scout cars saw widespread usage by Canadian units in the theatre. They were used as medical vehicles, artillery command post vehicles and as personnel carriers, with the largest numbers being employed by motor battalions such as the Westminster Regiment. Where the unit war establishment called for any number of "Truck, 15 cwt, Armoured 4x4," the White was generally the vehicle being referred to until the arrival GM Canada C15TA Armoured trucks.

Later, under 'New Equipment' on pages 17-18 he writes:

By late October, 1944, the "D-Day Dodgers" as the Canadians in Italy referred to themselves, began to finally receive new armoured equipment, things that had been taken for granted in Northwest Europe. Sherman Ic, Ic Hybrid and Vc Fireflies and Sherman Ib 105mm howitzer tanks were taken on strength.

In addition to the new Sherman that began to arrive, other equipment was also issued or tested. Infantry and armoured units began to receive GM CT15A's, an excellent 4x4 armoured truck, which began to replace the White scout cars then in use.

Dingwall also provides the number of vehicles authorized for the armoured war establishments used by the Canadians in Italy. A quick count shows that a Motor Battalion had 53 armoured trucks 15 cwt on establishment. So, using the information provided in the book, the Westminster Regiment initially had 53 White scout cars which were replaced in the fall of 1944 by 53 GM CT15As.

Hope this is what you were looking for.

Cheers,
Dan.

[Julian Weber]

Wow! Thank you so much, Dan. That is everything and more than I asked for.

I will definitely look into getting that book. Any recommendations where to buy it?

[Dan Martel]

Don Dingwall is a member of this forum, so you might try sending him a PM. Or you could look for it online. Or visit local military shows to see if anyone is selling a used copy.

(Unfortunately, I'm using mine.)

Cheers,
Dan.