Women at War

[Hanno Spoelstra]

I'm afraid Carman's thread about women in the services was lost during the recent hack attack, but here's an interesting read: WOMEN AT WAR — D.O.W. HALL.

H.

Thanks Hanno ... ... for honouring our fair yet fearsome sex by starting this Women's thread again I look forward to watching the contributions grow, learning more about women's involvement in WW2 ... (and other involvements with the Forces)

... for in the end ... men are nothing as women are nothing, without each others input and actions.

(Shut up Mark! )

Carman

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by V_D
(Shut up Mark! )Carman

But, but, but......I didn't say anything YET !

...the nerve of some peoples children...%@$#.....

[Mark W. Tonner]

Carman;

Some numbers for you regarding Women serving in the Canadian Forces during the Second World War.

Source: ARMS, MEN AND GOVERNMENTS, THE WAR POLICIES OF CANADA 1939-1935; by C.P. STACEY

Total numbers of women enlistments and appointments to the three women's services during the war:

Women's Royal Canadian Naval Service (W.R.C.N.S.) - 6,781

Canadian Women's Army Corps (C.W.A.C.) - 21,624

Canadian Women's Auxiliary Air Force (later redesignated: Royal Canadian Air Force (Women's Division)(R.C.A.F. (W.D.)) - 17,018

Additionally, at least 4,518 women served in the medical services, most of them as nursing sisters.

An artists impression, of some examples, of the uniforms they wore:

Top - Figure # 1 - Women's Royal Canadian Naval Service

Bottom Left - Figure # 2 - Canadian Women's Army Corps

Bottom Right - Figure # 3 - Canadian Women's Auxiliary Air Force/Royal Canadian Air Force (Women's Division)

Cheers

Thanks for reposting this info Mark, and I'm glad that the "Uniforms" are back

Does anyone else have any Mom's Granny's and Aunty's, Sister's, to take out of the closet, dust off, and present for us to Salute/honour?

DENISE ... 25 years! I salute you (wish there was a SALUTING smiley icon )

Carman salutes DENISE --> O]

[Hanno Spoelstra]

For sale ad found on MilWeb - if anything, it gives a list of titles on the subject:

Assorted WW2 books
WAAC The Womans Story of the War original 1930 publication 250 pages story of the Womens Auxillary Army Corps £12.
What Did You Do in The War Mummy? story of women in WWII covers Land Army, WAAF, ATS, WVS and lots of others £8.
British Women at War original 1941 large size publication covers various roles of women in WWII, WRNS, NAAFI, ATS, FANY, YMCA, ATA and others extremely rare with original cover £30.
British Women Go To War WWII publication with dust sleeve quite scarce £25.
Blue for A Girl story of WRNS £10.
Unsung Heriones The Women Who Won The War £15.
01253 440666
Paul Waterworth 06 July '04

Tip: search on http://www.abebooks.com/ for availability and prices of these titles...

HTH,
Hanno

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

An almost forgotten unit: Het Vrouwenkorps van het KNIL (VK - KNIL) = The Womens Corps of the Netherlands East Indies Army.

After that the Netherlands had been liberated in spring 1945 recruitment of young girls for service with the KNIL in the Netherlands East Indies (NEI) began. Recruitment had however started in Australia, Canada and US already early 1944. The need for women in the KNIL was estimated thus:

100 Persons with good knowledge of NEI (incl language) and suitable as Officers and NCOs.
760 Medical Services
380 Social Services
165 Administrative Services
60 Telephone- and Radio operators

The first group (recruited in Australia, Canada and US) arrived 17 Sept 1945 and organized an Emergency Hospital in the former Parliament (Volksraad) in Batavia/Jakarta. The hospital (with a o 2 VK Surgeons) was used for treating ex-POWs. It was dissolved in March 1947.

The first group from the Netherlands (180 VK-ers, mostly medical)arrived to Penang in Nov 1945 and Batavia/Jakarta Jan 1946.

Commanding officer was Captain Mrs. C.A. "Billie" Smit.

The HQ was organized in the Ursulinen Klooster(convent), Batavia/Jakarta, in Nov 1945.

The VK-KNIL was disbanded in 1950. The unit never made big headlines in the military history, but for these young girls it was an important period in their lives, that should be remembered.

Enclosed: A picture of a VK-KNIL group outside the HQ in Batavia.

Greetings

Stellan

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Here we see a group of VK-KNIL travelling kelas kambing = the goat class. They are heading for Malang, E Java, to set up a Military Pharmacy. One of the boxes is marked that it contains equipment for blood transfusions.

An important field of work for VK-KNIL was to take care of all these POWs and Civilian interned that had suffered hard in the Japanese camps.

Stellan

[Rob van Meel]

Last saturday I talked with a veteran from the Vrouwenkorps , Koninklijk Nederlands Indie Leger (VK KNIL for short). She mentioned that one of the advantages of belonging to this unit, was that they could go out in the evening in civilian clothing. The members of the regular VHK (vrouwen hulp korps) were supposed to go out in uniform. Incidently the woman I spoke to, recently (?) published a book on the VK, KNIL. I'll try to find out details of this publication.

Br,

Rob

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Thank you Rob! Fantastic.

There were 19 classes of VK-KNIL trained between 1945 and 1950. The training of classes 1 and 2 took place abroad, but from the 3rd class in Mrs 1947 in Batavia.

From July 1947 the training was transferred to Bandoeng (In the ex-house of the Chief of the General Staff and later in a house on Kanarielaan).

The last class was nr 19, wich ended 5 Dec 1949.

Picture: VK-KNIL girls off duty in Batavia Dec 1946.

Hey Carman baby who loves you?

Originally posted by Art Johnson
Hey Carman baby who loves you?

COOL Art!
...as to "Carman baby, who loves me?" Why YOU DO darling... I'm just SO irresistable! So ART ... meet me in your next life, when you're free and ready, so we can go steady, baby! PS: Be sure to bring and wear your KILT!

[Mark W. Tonner]

Dear Karmen;

If you would be so kind, has to send me your new mailing address (by PM), I'll send you a copy of a new book, entitled: GREATCOATS AND GLAMOUR BOOTS, that was recently published. It's the story of the almost 50,000 women who served in the three Canadian Women's Services during the Second World War (W.R.C.N.S.; C.W.A.C.; R.C.A.F. (W.D.)). You may consider this to be a "Bunker Warmimg Gift".

Sincerely

"Your Royal Pain In The Butt"

Oh my gawd .... done! Wait 30 seconds, then check your PM's


You must enjoy my ability to live in a bunker! I'm going to decorate mine in Khaki ?

BTW ... I'm really enjoying all of the information that has been contributed to this thread so far. It's so interesting, and I love the interest shown! Thank you folks...

Yappy in Khaki

[John McGillivray]

Hello everyone,

Don’t forget all of the women who were working at the various factories building the materials used during the war. My mother spent the war working at Northern Electric in Montreal. She continued to work there after the war, up until she got married.

Dose anyone know what was being produced at Northern Electric?

John

[Frank Misztal]

... manufactured radios for aircraft and tanks, such as the Wireless Set #19 during the war years.

It appears that Women were very industrious and had their fingers in many pies of assisting in the war effort. I can only imagine some of the horrors the nursing women saw

My Aunty Amy (Dad's sister) was with the Navy and stationed "Overseas" in Newfoundland. I don't know what she did. I'll have to call her one day soon to grill her for details. Amazing lady. She also used to be a race car driver after the war. A woman after me own heart! I LOVE her energy and spirit!

[Mark W. Tonner]

Karmen;

The attached picture is of members of the British - Auxiliary Territorial Service (A.T.S.) being inspected buy Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone, somewhere in the south of England during the fall of 1939. These women were employed in the Women's Transport Service of the A.T.S.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Karmen;

The attached picture is of members of the British - Women's Auxiliary Air Force (W.A.A.F.) being inspected at their station in Lancashire during the fall of 1939.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

Karmen;

The attached picture is of members (Officers) of the British - Women's Royal Naval Service (W.R.N.S.) on parading at their quarters near London during the fall of 1939.

Cheers

I had to hit reply to get to the end of this thread to see what you wrote ... I see the words, but not the images as we'reclose to the endof a page again: old browser limitations I WILL get to see it all eventually...sometimes it works, sometimes not. At my most persistant,it's taken me up to a couple of hours of trying, sometimes successfully Maybe next attempt!

patience Mark-O ... I'll see those images yet!

Karmen

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

A Section of the Vrouwenkorps KNIL on the march (Kanariellaan) in Bandoeng, W Java, 1949.

Well ... gettin' there! The only image I haven't seen yet is the last one by Stellan.

Mark ... and Stellan, others, thanks for the images. Pictures really are worth a thousand words, and more

K.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Karmen;

The attached picture is of members of the British - Auxiliary Territorial Service (A.T.S.) being inspected buy Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone, somewhere in the south of England during the fall of 1939. These women were employed in the Women's Transport Service of the A.T.S.

Cheers

Nice,

Let us have a closer look at the ATS:

From left: A Private a Subaltern (1st Lt, a 2Lt was called Second subaltern) and a Sergeant.

What I don´t understand are all these organizations. ATS = Auxiliary Territorial Service - Transport Service. OK.

But there were also Women´s Transport Service (FANY) and Women´s Motor Transport Corps (MTC).

Did British motorized women fight a civil war of their own within WW 2?

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Stellan Bojerud
Nice,

Let us have a closer look at the ATS:

From left: A Private a Subaltern (1st Lt, a 2Lt was called Second subaltern) and a Sergeant.

What I don´t understand are all these organizations. ATS = Auxiliary Territorial Service - Transport Service. OK.

But there were also Women´s Transport Service (FANY) and Women´s Motor Transport Corps (MTC).

Did British motorized women fight a civil war of their own within WW 2?

Stellan;

I guess I'll have to post a break-down on the organization of the British - Auxiliary Territorial Service.......Please Stand By

Cheers

Hmmmm ... interesting! Women are ALWAYS fighting a civil war, it seems. Goes with the territory of being "Female" ... I'm glad roles are equalizing BOTH sides. We're all people. Period. Some of us just a little more Retro than others, male AND female. GRIN I maintain my right to freedom of choice to be retro or non-retro as I see fit :P Keep posting guys
(this really is great stuff in this thread ... RIGHT ladies? I KNOW you're reading )

Now back to you-all

[Rob van Meel]

Hi,

Wasn't the private in the ATS called a volunteer and the sergeant a section leader, whereas the L/Cpl was chief volunteer, and the Cpl a sub-leader and the WO a senior leader?

The higher ranking officers: these ranks will have to wait as my memory is not that good anymore, as I am getting close to 50.

Chief Controller Dame Helen Gwynne Vaughan was in charge of the ATS in the early years of the war. I do not recall her being replaced, so she may have served throughout WW 2.

On the Mechanised Transport Corps: all members, although they were volunteers and civilians, they had to pay an annula subscription of 10 shillings and 6 pence (half a guinea).
Cap, badges and buttons are copyright and remain the property of the Corps, possibly a reason why there are so few about. On the MTC: I have a small booklet in repro form, named Driver's manual. In the back is a rubber stamp dating this to May 1941.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Hello Rob,

I cannot the ORs in the ATS - but the Offrs.

Chief Controller (MjGen)
Senior Controller (Brig)
Controller (Col)
Chief Commander (LtCol)
Senior Commander (Maj)
Junior Commander (Cpt)
Subaltern (1Lt)
Second Subaltern (2Lt)

Greetings,
Stellan

Picture: First Aid Nursing Yeomanry (FANY)

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Stellan Bojerud
Let us have a closer look at the ATS:

What I don´t understand are all these organizations. ATS = Auxiliary Territorial Service - Transport Service. OK.

But there were also Women´s Transport Service (FANY) and Women´s Motor Transport Corps (MTC).

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
I guess I'll have to post a break-down on the organization of the British - Auxiliary Territorial Service

Stellan (and for you Karmen);

A basic break-down of the Organization of the Auxiliary Territorial Service (A.T.S.):

Formed: - under a Royal Warrant published In Army Order No. 199/1938, dated 9 September, 1938.

Ancestry: - the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps (W.A.A.C.), which had been formed in July, 1917, which in 1918 was renamed the Queen Mary's Army Auxiliary Corps (Q.M.A.A.C.), who by the end of the Great War, had a strength of approx. 40,850. The Queen Mary's Army Auxiliary Corps (Q.M.A.A.C.) was disbanded, effective 1 May, 1920.

Background: - after the publication of the Royal Warrant authorizing the formation of the Auxiliary Territorial Service (A.T.S.)(9 Sep 38), the forming of the A.T.S. rested with three voluntary women's services - the First Aid Nursing Yeomanry (F.A.N.Y.); - the Women's Legion and the - Emergency Service. These three services provided the initial officer cadre for the A.T.S. and after the establishment of the A.T.S. itself, officers henceforth, were drawn from within it's own rank and file. By 1939, the A.T.S. had a strength of approx. 17,000 women, all ranks (914 officers and 16,000 other ranks). At it's peak strength during the Second World War, the A.T.S. had approx. 250,000 women serving within it's ranks.

In September 1939, the First Aid Nursing Yeomanry (F.A.N.Y.) was amalgamated with the A.T.S. Attached under the control of the Auxiliary Territorial Service (A.T.S.), during the war years were the: - Motor Transport Corps (M.T.C.); - the American Women's Ambulance Corps (W.A.C.) - and the Women's Legion

During the War years, there were some 80 different army trades that members of the A.T.S. served in, the largest numbers serving in the duties of office, mess and telephone orderlies. Next came cooks and cookhouse staff, drivers and postal workers, and then came storekeepers working in depots and other storehouses.

Other army trades that members of the A.T.S. served in were, as butchers, bakers, ammunition inspectors and military police. About a quarter of all A.T.S. served in Anti-Aircraft Command (A.A. Command), in anti-aircraft batteries where they came under fire but did not, in theory, fire the guns, because the Royal Warrant that had brought the A.T.S. to life, limited the women to non-combatant duties. Despite this, the Commander-in-Chief A.A. Command, General Sir Frederick Pile, described hos A.T.S. gunners as being "the first women to take their place in a combatant role in any army in the world".

A.T.S. duties performed with the various Corps of the British Army:

Royal Army Service Corps (R.A.S.C.): - in order to relieve the manpower problems, the A.T.S. provided drivers, clerks and 'housekeeping personnel' in many of the static establishments.

Royal Signals (R. Sigs): - by war's end, approx. 15,000 A.T.S. peronnel had been employed performing various duties normally preformed by Royal Signals tradesmen. These duties included: staffing of signal and cipher offices, the operation of switchboards, line and wireless circuits of static and A.A. communications systems.

Royal Army Ordnance Corps (R.A.O.C.): - one of the earliest and largest of the A.T.S. (F.A.N.Y.) duties within the R.A.O.C., was the staffing of a large part of the vehicle side of the Central Ordnance Depot (C.O.D.) at Chilwell, to which all kinds of vehicles and spare parts were collected from industry. From the C.O.D., the A.T.S. (F.A.N.Y.), delivered these vehicles and spare parts all over the United Kingdom and to the posts of embarkation to bring units up to their mobilization scales. The A.T.S. took over the whole process, ie: - receiving unit indents, preparing the demanded vehicles for the road, preparing all paperwork (vehicles documents) and delivering the vehicles. Throughout the war years, the R.A.O.C. employed approx. 22,648 A.T.S. personnel, of whom 18,199 were tradeswomen, 6,212 were specialist 'Clerks RAOC' and 9,855 were trade-trained storewomen. Also, there were 294 ordinary storewomen and 1,983 drivers (non-tradeswomen) employed by the R.A.O.C.

Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers (R.E.M.E): - approx. 6,208 A.T.S. personnel were employed by R.E.M.E., 2,643 of whom were employed in skilled trades, ie: - radio-mechanics, motor-mechanics, welders, turners, tinsmiths, electricians, draughtswomen (for machine drawing) and coachtrimmers

Corps of Military Police (C.M.P.): - the provost branch of the A.T.S. was formed in 1942, by 1943 their strength was approx. 752

Royal Army Pay Corps (R.A.P.C.): - employed both officers and other ranks of the A.T.S. in the Pay Services

Royal Army Chaplains Department (R.A.Ch.D.) - A.T.S. personnel were employed as Royal Army Chaplains Department Assistants, for service with the A.T.S. itself.

Approx. 24,121 A.T.S. personnel were employed within the A.T.S. itself, ie: A.T.S. schools and training units, and has P.T. Instructors, trailors, and hairdressers.

I think that pretty well gives you an idea of the A.T.S.

Cheers

Attached two photos:

Top: A.T.S. (F.A.N.Y.) Subaltern and a Private driver.
Bottom: an A.T.S. Section Leader (Sgt) and Sub-Leader (Cpl) fitting a recruit with boots, 1939

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Stellan Bojerud
Hello Rob,

I cannot the ORs in the ATS - but the Offrs.

Stellan/Rob;

The other ranks A.T.S.

1938 to 1941: (from senior to junior)

Senior Leader (WO II)
Section Leader (Sgt)
Sub-Leader (Cpl)
Chief Volunteer (L/Cpl)
Volunteer (Pte)

From 1941: (from senior to junior)

Warrant Officer, 2nd Class
Sergeant
Corporal
Lance-Corporal
Private

Note: the A.T.S. Officers retained their unique rank nomenclature throughout the war years.

Cheers