New Handguns CBSA

[Barry Churcher]

Credit to the post below goes to the Vancouver Artillery Assoc. News.

Barry

ACCOKEEK, Md., April 23 /PRNewswire/ — Beretta U.S.A. today announced it has been awarded a multi-year contract from the Canada Border Services Agency effective immediately. This government-to-business contract will provide the soon to be armed Canadian agency with the Beretta Model Px4 Storm semi-automatic pistol in 9mm, double action with tritium sights. The contract’s initial order is for 2,400 units, with additional options allowing orders of up to 6,400 total units. As part of the contract, Beretta USA will train the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) Armourer Section to become a warranty center for the product in support of the Canada Border Services Agency. The Beretta Px4 Storm offers a number of unique features including interchangeable back straps that make it adaptable to different hand sizes, an ambidextrous manual safety lever ideally positioned on both sides of the slide for easy access by all shooters and a reversible magazine release button that can be mounted on either side and can quickly be replaced by a smaller or larger size button depending on the users preference. The interchangeable back strap and the ability to easily customize the Px4 Storm for individualized comfort and use make the pistol a versatile choice for law enforcement departments that have firearm users with a wide range of hand sizes. In addition to the product features of the Px4 Storm, this Beretta semi-automatic pistol offers unsurpassed reliability in the field. During the CBSA evaluation, the Beretta Px4 Storm dramatically exceeded reliability and adverse test conditions, including testing at -40 degrees Centigrade. According to Jeff Reh, Vice-General Manager for Beretta USA Corp, “We are honoured to have been chosen for this prestigious contract by the Canada Border Services Agency. The Canadian Government has chosen a state-of-the-art pistol to match the increasingly challenging mission of providing border security. We look forward to working with the CBSA to satisfy the needs of this important department.”

These pistols are being built in the US, and all benefit goes to Beretta, USA. CBSA officers are receiving their shiny new Berettas now. Meanwhile, the CF is using pistols that are roughly between 20 and 65(!) years old. They reached the end of their service life when soldiers serving today were little. Yet, like so much else of our equipment, we are squeezing more life out of them.

It is past time that our current service side arms are replaced. The Army’s Browning Hi-Powers date from WW2 and are notorious for magazines falling out while firing (which is a problem if you find yourself in a situation where your life depends on that sidearm), and the Navy’s and MP’s SIG-Sauer P225s (from the 1970s) are worn out to the point that the springs crack or break, rendering the weapon inoperative until replacement.

On Oct 17, 2011, The Ottawa Citizen reported that the P&A for new Army handguns had been cancelled because potential suppliers objected to its requirement to supplying proprietary details to Colt Canada. No suppliers regarded this small order as worth surrendering industrial secrets.”
Now, the above is a matter of record; it is (somewhat) known that the selection was down to the SIG-Sauer P226 or the 4th-generation Glock 17, at which point the government informed the suppliers that the design would have to be licensed to Colt Canada, to allow 10,000 pistols to be built in-country.

In this day and age, the phrase “Industrial & Regional Benefit” is tossed around a lot. Basically, the idea is to provide economic benefit to Canada for any government procurement (another example is the National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy). So, the CF cannot have new handguns until they are built in Canada. Why, then, is the Canada Border Services Agency, another federal government agency, allowed to arm their officers with 6,400 Beretta PX4 Storm pistols purchased in the US? These pistols are being built in the US, and all benefit goes to Beretta USA. CBSA officers are receiving their shiny new Berettas at this time. Meanwhile, CF personnel are using pistols that are roughly between 20 and 65(!) years old. They reached the end of their service life when most serving soldiers were little. Yet, like so much else of our CF equipment, more life is being squeezed out of them. It is unfortunate that this seems to be one of those issues where a CF member must be hurt or killed before something changes. At what point does IRB become worth it?

If this government really cares about its military, it must relax some of its inflexible rules. Providing economic benefits to Canada is well and good, but the effectiveness of the equipment and receiving it in a timely manner should take priority.”

[rob love]

The replacement of the Brownings is a low priority for the army. Sidearms were recorded as having killed zero insurgents by the CF in Afghanistan. Lots of other areas where the money could be spent more effectively. The news is now out that the CF is parking close to 50% of it's B vehicles as a cost cutting measure.

As for border services receiving sidearms, I am sure they are enjoying having to wear their vests and sidearms on both hot days and cold (that's sarcasm by the way). For the number of arrests at gunpoint they are making, it does not seem like money well spent.

As to the complaint that the magazines fall out of the BHP while firing, I have never seen that happen, and I fire a BHP in competitions all the time. Anyone else ever seen this?

[Ed Storey]

I have experienced some feed problems on the range with this handgun which were attributed to well used magazines. I am no firearms expert but any Hi Power I have been issued worked well enough for me to 'frighten the s__t' out of any Figure 11 target I have encountered.

[rob love]

The Inglis hipower magazines have always been a sore point with this handgun. Rumour from sources in the know blamed improper heat treating of the Inglis mag feed lips. However, in the last bunch of years, the LCMMs have been buying new magazines from FN which solves the problem.

Another culprit is the procedure of simply swapping a bad mag around until it finds a gun it works in, or else tossing all the mags (good and bad) back into the box after a day at the ranges. Mags are worth what: $20? Bad ones should be segregated and de-commisioned at the range.

While the Inglis certainly can be improved on, it is overall a tough pistol that has done it's job for almost 70 years, and may well be around for another 10 the way things are going.

[Robert Bergeron]

Guys,

Whatever the Border Services is getting as a sidearm is fine by me. The important thing is they get the proper training. More police officers and security personel get harmed with their own sidearm in accidental discharge events than bad guys.

As for the Canadian Forces, I have had a love affaire with the BHP ever since we got the new mags , it has given sterling service.

Yes there was always a problem with the magazines. The bad one were never retired and always came back to pest us.

I should point out that i am of the opinion that it is a weapon of last resort when your service weapon is jammed or lost in combat.

Because of the limited range and efectiveness of the 9mm round, the pistol is considered of limited use for combat use.

The military police are just that, police. They should have reliable and efficient sidearms.

It is an age old debate.

Over are the days when pistols were considered as a status symbol for officers. As soon as snipers started targetting opponents wearing pistols, officers started hiding or discarding them.

So , the real question i am trowing in the debate : Do we really need pistols in combat ?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Sounds like the never ending story of the Dutch Police trying to buy a new standard handgun. See for example http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...ama-continues/

What is so difficult about buying an off-the-shelf item like a handgun?

H.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

What is so difficult about buying an off-the-shelf item like a handgun?

Canada makes it hard. Rather than simply buying off the shelf, we want all the drawings given to Colt Canada ( formerly Diemaco) so they can make us the spares in the future. We tendered for the pistols and for rifles to replace the Cno4MK1* Enfields in use by the Cdn Rangers. There were apparently no takers.

We had done this in the past with various arms, including the Hipower. Often we pay a royalty per gun, and agree not to sell to other countries. However, we often did sell or give them as mutual aid.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by rob love

Canada makes it hard.

So does Holland - we indeed have a lot in common.

The Dutch Police uses the Walther P5 since 1979. Since spares were longer available, procurement for a replacement started in 2008 to replace the P5 by 2010. The European tender for a new handgun was about nine months late because none of the candidate substitutes met the requirements (...). Early 2011 the Ministry of Security and Justice announced the firm SIG SAUER would deliver the new gun: the SIG SAUER PPNL (Police Pistol Netherlands) specifically made for the Dutch police. In November 2011 the government called off the purchase because this weapon would be of insufficient quality and unsafe. In October 2012 it was made known the pistol of choice would be the Walther P99Q as the successor to the P5. By late next year, police officers should have their new service weapon....

Why would the Dutch police need a pistol specifically made for them?
Why would they need about 6 years to select and buy a handgun?

H.

[Marc Montgomery]

I never saw the need for CBSA to be armed. Its merely a status ploy by the agency. Let me see, the number of times a border guard has had a gun pointed at them has been....um zero?

I believe this "desire" was accentuated by a border incident a few years ago where a US bad guy and US agents shot at each other as he tried to run the Cdn border.

There is however a real possibility of agents committing suicide (or worse) with their service pistol..something that happens occasionally with police and other armed agencies.

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Marc Montgomery

I never saw the need for CBSA to be armed. Its merely a status ploy by the agency. Let me see, the number of times a border guard has had a gun pointed at them has been....um zero?

There was a female guard shot at a BC border crossing back in Oct of 2012. The officer was shot in the neck with no warning by a guy who committed suicide right after.

With odds like that, I would wager the threat to border guards is actually lower than many other professions who will likely never be armed in Canadian society.

[chris vickery]

Hmm. And here the Canadian Government is afraid of joe average owning firearms, yet all in all, us average people don't own or use firearms to assert or abuse power over others. Nor do we shoot our partners, ourselves, innocent civilians etc etc. Methinks it a jealousy thing, as our guys look across the bridge and see Homeland Security armed to the teeth.(we need toys to look tough too!)
Those so employeed in jobs such as Civil servants in uniform need not be armed to rip me off for tax money.
Maybe Canada Post needs to arm up too?

[Marc Montgomery]

well rob, lesson learned..beware of absolutes... Ok one guard shot at, serious injury, but recovered....motive absolutely unclear..if any.. but I dont see how if the guard was armed it would have made any difference--in that particular instance..

I suspect Chris has a point about jealousy and looking tough.. I just dont see the need for customs folks to be armed...just more chances of injuries and worse through accidents..far more than actual need.

Meanwhile...it seems a horrific shame that if the military is going to get new sidearms, that the highly collectible IHP will be melted rather than sold to legit authorized collectors and give the govt a pretty darn good boost in the public coffers.

That I suspect is perhaps due to political correctness in that a certain segment of the population would scream if the govt was to sell off handguns to the public, regardless of the complete legality of potential purchasers, ownership, handling etc.

However, has the govt in the past sold off handguns to the public at any time? They can't sell the rifles due to the full auto functionality of course, but has military and police always melted their exchanged pistols?

[chris vickery]

Marc, yes the Police have sold their surplus handguns off to the public. In the past they have gone to large volume dealers.
My father had an ex Metro Toronto Police S&W snub nose detective special in .38 cal and I had an ex RCMP Sig Sauer P226 9mm. That was 20 years ago, maybe times have changed.

[rob love]

Under the Liberal written laws, all publicly owned guns, once no longer required by the crown, must be destroyed. This prevents police forces from trading in their old firearms to partially finance the purchase of new. In the case of the Cdn Forces BHP, the current government did suggest that the better ones could be made available for collectors in Canada. It would require some changes in laws and regulations, but who better than the Cdn Government to do so.


As to the post office etc getting guns, I can think of no government department which would be more of a problem than arming posties.

Other government departments have been getting very high on their security levels in the past few years. I bought some generators from the dept of agriculture in downtown Winnipeg a year ago, and it was like getting into Fort Knox...2 levels of electrically locked doors just to get into their foyer.

[Lynn Eades]

The anti gun fraternity have been pushing at the U.N for years.
The U.N. is our problem as our various governments past, have signed up to various protocols aimed at dis-arming us, the public.
What our fathers were able to do with regards firearms has little to compare with what we can do today.
How many pistols came home from WWII? (legally or illegally) (Did any of our fathers/ Grandfathers/ Uncles etc. get into any trouble as a result of this?)
Our various governments did use to sell off firearms to Joe Public. I would suggest that this is a thing of the past.
I recall Sterling SMGs, Recoilless rifles, and M113s going to be melted down, at home.
(the M113s, by order of the U.S.A. of course)
Beware the U.N.

[Marc Montgomery]

Strange how times change..I have a Star weekly magazine from about 1944 showing a high ranking Cdn officer and his 14yr old son, who had just been handed a fully operational mp40 from dad as a gift/war trophy.
Title was -Lucky boy !

Now dad would be hauled off for criminal child abuse or something

[David Dunlop]

It's hard to believe it's the same world sometimes, isn't it!

When I was in my early teens, there used to be a Catalog Sporting Goods company in downtown Winnipeg called S. I. Robinson who's basement level was a giant gun room full of row upon row of long arm racks. I can remember visiting the place on more than one occasion and none of the firearms were locked down, and the staff were extremely friendly. They had every possible military rifle from around the world. Simply awesome! I recall $9.99 No. 4 Enfields, $19.99 Enfield Jungle Carbines, $29.99 M1 Carbines and $49.99 Garands to name but a few.

In the 1970's, when I was in University, I joined the UofM Pistol Club and bought a .22 LR High Standard to start out with. When I got comfortable with that, a company on Northwest Ontario advertised they had a limited supply of Canadian issue Colt 1911 .45 Cal Pistols for sale and I bought one. At the time, the RCMP were in charge of restricted firearm registration. No exams, no tests. You just went down and filled out the applications and when you got your pistol they issued you a transport permit to bring it in for registration. The RCMP office in charge was on Broadway at the time and when I took the .45 in for registration, the Constable who was processing my paperwork was so excited about seeing the .45, he called in all his buddies from the office to have a look at it and a couple of them even brought out some of their own favourites to show me. It was a great experience, that I cannot imagine happening today. I kept both pistols for about 30 years. Had about 4,000 rounds throughout the High Standard but do not think more than 200 ever went through the Colt.

David

[Marc Montgomery]

ah yes those were the days...I remember a big army surplus/hardware store right on Yonge street near Queen- Hercules... right at the door, was a couple of 45 gal drums with M-1 carbines in them... your choice $25. pick one out , walk to the cash, and walk home with it.. no problem. ,,,then.... now it seems you'd never make it a block before you would be shot dead and questioned after

[motto]

It seems that the Australian attitude/social context for and against firearms has roughly paralleled the Canadian experience.
The world that us older guys grew up in was undoubtedly a more respectful and more trusting world than we live in today.
The vast majority of the urban population now receives their firearms training at the movies or in front of the television in the lounge rooms of their broken homes. Night and day the message is drummed into them that guns are for use against people. What chance is there of withstanding the relentless torrent of gun glorification for putting down bad guys or imposing your will on others.
And that's only part of the problem. Drugs just weren't around when I was growing up.
It wasn't a perfect world by any means but in many ways it was a better one.

David