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CMP in North Africa...
Folks,
Is it possible to give a production date or similar for the CMP in the attached photo? It's been captured by the Italians. Although the windscreen seems to be missing, but the rest is in good shape - combined with the hoop behind the driver, this makes me think this is designed similar to the early style british trucks with the aero windscreens. It appears to have been in Indian Army service before the cockerel-feather boys hot hold of it. Thanks! Aris Kosionidis |
#2
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It is an early #11 cab but no CMP was made with aero windscreens so I guess it was a field modification. I think you will find that the windscreen frame has been removed.
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Cheers Cliff Hutchings aka MrRoo S.I.R. "and on the 8th day he made trucks so that man, made on the 7th day, had shelter when woman threw him out for the night" MrRoo says "TRUCKS ROOLE" |
#3
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Not only is it a 1940 No.11 cab, but it's a FORD. By the bridging plate I think it's also only an F15A.
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1916 Albion A10 1942 White Scoutcar 1940 Chev Staff Car 1940 F30S Cab11 1940 Chev WA LRDG "Te Hai" 1941 F60L Cab12 1943 Ford Lynx 1942 Bren Gun Carrier VR no.2250 Humber FV1601A Saracen Mk1(?) 25pdr. 1940 Weir No.266 25pdr. Australian Short No.185 (?) KVE Member. |
#4
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SM 2002?
There were no, to my knowledge, British # 11 Cab F15As, so may I suggest a SM 2002 F15, which would place it as at least January 1941 onwards?
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#5
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It looks like it's a Ford Cab 11 4x2 and it has the 2A1 wooden box. The windshield and doors have been removed but in the desert you'd have to get rid of the heat from that V8 water heater somehow! The canvas hoop on the back of the cab and the little "windscreen" are definitely field mods.It doesn't have the towing D-rings on the bumper but notice the towing loops behind the bumper. These and the 2A1 box point to early 1940 production but it does have the cab vents.
David, wouldn't January 1941 onwards be 12 cabs? To me, this looks like June or July 1940 production. The 2B1 metal boxes seem to show up on the late cab 11s. This is the same type vehicle as in Atillio's DAK truck identification thread.
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1940 Cab 11 C8 Wireless with 1A2 box & 11 set 1940 Cab 11 C8 cab and chassis 1940 Cab 11 C15 with 2A1 & Motley mount & Lewis gun 1940 Cab 11 F15A w/ Chev rear ends 1941 Cab 12 F15A 1942-44 Cab 13 F15A x 5 1942 cab 13 F15A with 2B1 box 1943 cab 13 F15A with 2H1 box 1943 Cab 13 C8A HUP 1944 Cab 13 C15A with 2C1 box 1943 Cletrac M2 High Speed Tractor MkII Bren gun carrier chassis x 2 |
#6
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# 11 Cab
No David, these were # 11 Cabs, with production starting late August 1940 as 1941 Models, August 26th for Fords in fact and September 3rd for Chevrolets. These did not arrive in Alexandria until late December/early January 1941 for assembly, so that's the earliest the photo could have been taken. They were then of course sent to Greece, and then promptly captured, along with 4x2 types, by the Axis!
I can't give you a definite date for the change-over to # 12 Cabs but it was in early 1941 as it included 1940 MODEL Canadian orders, all UK ones being 1941 Models. As regards Chevrolet: THUMB SCREW TYPE ENGINE HOODS...BEFORE SERIAL # 084XX04001 AND # 184XX05004 (# 11 CABS) ALLIGATOR TYPE HOOD..ON OR AFTER 084XX04001 AND 184XX05004 TO SERIAL # 284XX01523....(# 12 CABS) |
#7
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Gentlemen,
First of all, thank you for the quick and comprehensive answers. To be honest, I thought the question was a long shot, but in this company, the term needs to be redefined :-) . Bit of a faux-pas on my part mentioning aero windscreens, but I'll book an appointment for flagellation this week :-) . What I meant was that maybe the truck was designed with an open or canvas cab- I think there's a clip of such a version in Iran at britishpathe.com . Anyway, it's a good guess the Ford used to belong to the 3rd Indian Motor Brigade, it carries what looks like their horseshoe insignia on the fender. The Brigade met the Axis in N. Africa twice, on April '41 and May '42, getting very seriously beaten by superior numbers both times. The Caunter scheme suggests the 1941 date, I think. Dating the CMP type is an extra constraint. best regards Aris Kosionidis |
#8
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Indian CMP?
I found the photo below captioned "Trucks of the Anti-locust campaign at Rayena Sth Persia" while doing a search using the Pictures Australia website. It shows a similar CMP to above with what appears to be the hood bows for a rag top and no windscreed frame.
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Cheers Cliff Hutchings aka MrRoo S.I.R. "and on the 8th day he made trucks so that man, made on the 7th day, had shelter when woman threw him out for the night" MrRoo says "TRUCKS ROOLE" |
#9
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Quote:
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SUNRAY SENDS AND ENDS :remember :support |
#10
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Found two more CMPs that seem to have been adapted (thank you Geoff!) in a similar way. One is from an older eBay lot, the other from the already mentioned clip on pathe (Nr.1133.13) . With Cliff's find, that's four already.
best regards Aris Kosionidis |
#11
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Sorry for the small size, it was not the centrepiece of te photo.
Aris |
#12
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CMP in North Africa
I have a book World War 2 Allied Vehicles by John Blackman. On page 21 there is a good picture of a Chev Canadian built C15 open cab that was used in Libya. It has the aro-screen windshield and machinegun mount .It was used by the French army George
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George is hooked on OD 5 window DT969 8 ton Fruehauf trailer M2A1Halftrack ,CMP #11 F15A1 #13 F15A1 RAF Fordson Tractor, 42 WLC HD No.2MK11 CT267514 center CB24713 bottom hull25701 ,No.2 MK2 parts MK1 10128 ,(2) MK1 ,Parts Hull9305 .Hull 10407 Hull plate # 7250 all have walk plate on back steps 1917 Patent modle amphibious army tank |
#13
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SM 2002 again
They appear to my poor eyes as though they are # 12 and # 11 cab Chevrolets, C15s? They would be to SM 2002 again.
I had a sudden thought when the IA was mentioned, but despite original requests by the Ministry of Supply to send thousands of C15/F15 trucks to Bombay, this was changed a short time later in August 1940 to delivery to Egypt mainly. They were then of course, with other vehicles, issued to the AIF, NZEF and IA and then "sold" from mid-1941 to the Australian and NZ Governments, the War Office acquiring any for the Government of India. |
#14
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The 6 AoS on blue-red is the early Anti-Tank Royal Artillery so perhaps she towed a 2 Pdr or a Bofors Anti-Tang gun?
The air vents on the Pattern 11 cab is odd, what was the transition date to Pattern 12? Here is a similar early AoS from France 1940. -Bob |
#15
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Bit close for comfort in the Bedford MW. At least 3 bullet holes on the LHS. Glad I wasn't the co-driver in that one.
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1916 Albion A10 1942 White Scoutcar 1940 Chev Staff Car 1940 F30S Cab11 1940 Chev WA LRDG "Te Hai" 1941 F60L Cab12 1943 Ford Lynx 1942 Bren Gun Carrier VR no.2250 Humber FV1601A Saracen Mk1(?) 25pdr. 1940 Weir No.266 25pdr. Australian Short No.185 (?) KVE Member. |
#16
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Lynx42
The enemy likely though it was a lefhand drive vehicle george
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George is hooked on OD 5 window DT969 8 ton Fruehauf trailer M2A1Halftrack ,CMP #11 F15A1 #13 F15A1 RAF Fordson Tractor, 42 WLC HD No.2MK11 CT267514 center CB24713 bottom hull25701 ,No.2 MK2 parts MK1 10128 ,(2) MK1 ,Parts Hull9305 .Hull 10407 Hull plate # 7250 all have walk plate on back steps 1917 Patent modle amphibious army tank |
#17
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Bob,
Nice Bedford photo! "one previous owner, low mileage..." I'm not confident about making that AoS match. The Indian Army had its own system, or was following British lines but with idiosyncrasies, so a "6" might mean something totally different. It's a possibility though. Aris |
#18
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Aris,
If you look closely at the CMP AoS sign you can see the two tones split horizontal which should be blue.red with a white 6. This was the early war A0S for Anti-Tank units. Indian markings I'm not sure about, they may have the same or perhaps it isn't Indian? If you like the Bedford, here is a side view of the same. I'd love to be the Jerry who stumbled across such a nice example of the MW. -Bob |
#19
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Another one...
From Armes Miltaria HS No.50 "De l'Irak a Syrie", entering Aleppo in July 1941 is...
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#20
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Hmmm!
Reminds me of a 2-pounder Portee with # 42 cab but it cannot be.
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#21
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David,
Not trying to be contrary here, but I think a portee wouldn't sit so low- and it's missing the rounded extensions each side of the cab. The latter could have been removed, of course... Aris |
#22
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Thoughts
I was very careful, thanks, in my wording as it reminds me of the canvas hooding as used on the Portees, though much shorter. Am I right in saying that this was an "Indian Army" style?
I have checked and my memory is correct: no S/M 2002-6 CMPs [the very first British orders] were delivered to Bombay in the end though the initial intention was that a large number would be sent. The Indian Army supplied large numbers of 1940 Model Chevrolets assembled in Bombay to Egypt, and the War Office then asked the London Exchange Requirements Committee for $$$ to purchase spare parts for them, some of which could be paid in Egyptian Pounds. I can only suggest that this is an Alexandria-assembled early # 11 cab, with local modifications! |
#23
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Re: Another one...
Quote:
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Film maker 42 FGT No8 (Aust) remains 42 FGT No9 (Aust) 42 F15 Keith Webb Macleod, Victoria Australia Also Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles group on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/canadianmilitarypattern |
#24
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Then...
...it's a S/M 2002 truck assembled in Alexandria from December 1940/January 1941.
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#25
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I should have added
Looks like a cab 11 version like the pic at the top of the page.
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Film maker 42 FGT No8 (Aust) remains 42 FGT No9 (Aust) 42 F15 Keith Webb Macleod, Victoria Australia Also Canadian Military Pattern Vehicles group on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/canadianmilitarypattern |
#26
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Re: CMP in North Africa
Quote:
Here's another picture of that truck. It was rebuilt with some modifications (including a diesel engine), so one could doubt it's value as a reference vehicle. Hanno Source: http://www.mvcgfrance.org
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Regards, Hanno -------------------------- |
#27
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Re: Thoughts
Quote:
Yes, this was the "Indian Pattern" style. All MCPs and CMPs assembled in India from CKD packs seem to have been chassis/cowls or cabs only, fitted with locally produced composite (angle iron and wood) GS-style bodies. They do not have a metal cab roof nor windscreen. I'm not sure about contracts and delivery dates, but the trucks shown in this thread all seem to be of the Indian Pattern type, which I doubt were assembled in Alexandria? Hanno Linked from Bombay Chev
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Regards, Hanno -------------------------- Last edited by Hanno Spoelstra; 17-05-11 at 09:26. Reason: fixed link |
#28
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Photo taken in India in 1942.
Keith
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Keith |
#29
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Keith,
Thanks; I moved your post from Indian Pattern FAT to here, as there are more of these Indian Pattern 15-cwt 4x2's in this thread. Hanno
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Regards, Hanno -------------------------- |
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