Empire & Allied Armoured Vehicle Census Numbers

[Roddy de Normann]

Hi to all on St georges Day...!

Please may I put a question covering vehicle census numbers again ?

As many might know, a number of us are attempting to put together a definitive listing of the T-series vehicles and their units. One question that keeps popping up is the relationship between the British numbers and those of our main vehicle producing empire allies, the Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans and Indians. Each of these countries had their own systems to some extent but also used British T-numbers.

First off then, does anyone have a good summary of the different systems used in these other countries ? I am particularly interested in Australia and India...

Second, when these counties deployed their own vehicles abroad - ie Australian carriers to N Africa - did they also sport a British T-number alongside their own country's number ?

Third, does anyone have a definitive rundown on the Polish numbering system while they were in the UK. Why was their numbering different from the UK/Empire standard when their AoS were not ?

Finally, I have just gone through every thread from 2003 looking for census numbers and found a fair few. What did impress was the sheer standard and quality of knowledge - no question too difficult. It is a treat to be part of it.

Roddy de Normann
Devizes, UK

[Tony Smith]

The Australian Army used 5 (!) numbering series for vehicles during WW2. Vehicles supplied from US and UK stocks often retained their original numbers from those systems, but did not sport both old and new numbers.
Vehicles ordered specifically for the Australian Imperial Forces (The AIF was the part of the Army that volunteered for overseas service) used the British system of vehicle classes, but prefixed with AIF (eg AIF T-14395). AIF numbers ranged from AIF 1 to AIF 25974 for all vehicle classes.
Vehicles ordered for the Permanent Military Forces and the Militia (the parts of the Army not for overseas service), as well as other commonwealth departments had the Commonwealth, or "C" system. This was later adopted by the AIF as well. C numbers run from C 00001 to C 105866 for all vehicle classes. When the number was issued on a number plate, it would take the form of C-01234, with the letter C in red and the numbers in black. When painted on vehicle the number would be shown as just 1234, with the numbers painted in either black or white depending on the background colour.
And finally, for Carriers only, they later adopted the Hull serial number as the vehicle identifier. Depending when they were produced and what system was in use, some carriers were numbered under just 1 system only, some under 2 systems, and some were under all 3 systems, AIF, C number, and Hull number!
Records of these numbering systems and the vehicles they were allocated to are still on hand in the Australian War Memorial archives.
Pictured is an Australian LP1 Carrier with the number AIF T-1855

[Tony Smith]

This LP2 carrier carries both a number under the C system, C-15001, and it's hull number 1091.

[Tony Smith]

A small selection of the AWM records relating to Aust LP2A carriers. The info on the left page lists the original AIF numbers these carriers were issued with up to 17/12/41, when they changed to the C system numbers shown by the stamped number. They changed again to the Hull numbers, in the right column, in mid '42. Note that neither the AIF numbers, nor the C numbers are sequential to the hull serial numbers. Carriers were issued haphazardly to the AIF or militia and were numbered irregularly. Blocks of numbers weren't allocated to sequential production.

[Roddy de Normann]

Tony -

God bless you sir !

Many thanks for your reply, it is all starting to make some sense now. I wonder if anyone else out there knows about the Indian and Polish systems.

I am particularly interested in the veh number files you mentioned. Can you give me the AWM refrences so that I can send in an order for them ? Do they also include which unit each veh went to ?

Presumably once the LP carriers started to emerge, then shipments of carriers from the UK stopped ?

Again, many thanks

Roddy

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Roddy1011
I am particularly interested in the veh number files you mentioned. Can you give me the AWM refrences so that I can send in an order for them ? Do they also include which unit each veh went to ?
Roddy

The records the AWM has are the original registration registers, big hefty books about 300 pages thick. There's 26 of them in the series and they cover 231,512 vehicles from WW1 to 1993! They are not indexed, catalogued, nor microfiched, but they are available for perusal in the Research Centre. Vehicles are only listed in order of their C or ARN number, with some vehicle types, such as carriers, spread over several volumes. I had started to sift through the info relating to carriers, but have not found them all yet! I tend to find something else interesting and get sidetracked! Should you happen to be in Canberra, ask to see AWM 126-01 to AWM 126-26.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Roddy1011

As many might know, a number of us are attempting to put together a definitive listing of the T-series vehicles and their units.

Hi Roddy,

I know this is a very old thread, but information on Carrier Census numbers has just come into my hands, which I can share with the forum. It is in the form of a weekly "Return of Vehicles Held on Charge", dated 23rd Feb. 1943 for 143rd Field Regt R.A., 49th Infantry Division, probably in the UK at this time.

Carrier, AOP, MkIII
T85320
T85326
T85335
T85214

Carrier Universal MkI
T11082
T11309
T13632
T10723

There are also Vehicle Census numbers for all the other vehicles in the unit, inc. REME LAD and attached Signals.

[kevinT]

Hello Richard,

Thanks firstly for posting the Carrier numbers, you say that there are other vehicle census numbers for all the other vehicles listed.
Do you still have access to these as I would certainly be interested in them.
Thanks again for posting.

Cheers
Kevin

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by kevinT

Hello Richard,

Thanks firstly for posting the Carrier numbers, you say that there are other vehicle census numbers for all the other vehicles listed.
Do you still have access to these as I would certainly be interested in them.
Thanks again for posting.

Kevin,

The other vehicle numbers are not armoured, but range from BSA M20 m/cycles, Tillies, Bedford MW 15cwt trucks, Morris Commercial C8 gun tractors, Humber staff car, etc. I guess quite a few people would be interested to see if their vehicle was listed, so I could post on the Softskin forum.

[kevinT]

Richard,

Please post the soft skin WD census numbers on the Soft Skin forum as you say I am sure there are others who would be interested to see them.

Cheers
Kevin

[Roddy de Normann]

Richard -

Many thanks for carrier Nos - can you give me the source - NA File of War Diary ? I have yet to start looking through the Gunner War Diaries at the NA - the same goes for the Inf Bns. But that said, carriers are a big hole in my attempts to date.


Kevin -

Ref B Veh listings. Enormous undertaking to publish any list as they are generally huge. Best just to give accurate references.

Roddy

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by Roddy1011

Richard -

Many thanks for carrier Nos - can you give me the source - NA File of War Diary ? I have yet to start looking through the Gunner War Diaries at the NA - the same goes for the Inf Bns. But that said, carriers are a big hole in my attempts to date.

Hi Roddy,

The source was the son of a war veteran that served in the 143rd Field Regt. R.A., 49th Infantry Div. The original copy of the weekly returns on vehicle status in the unit. If they were not to Class I or Class II, then they had to be classifies to Class III, IV, V, etc and the amount of hours work shown to bring them to Class II standard. It is several sheets of large paper typed out and signed by the Unit O/C, not something I could scan unfortunately. Probably unusual to come across, but I thought the Census numbers should be recorded in the rare chance that someone may have a vehicle beraring one of these numbers.

The Unit had been stationed in Iceland prior to this, but were brought back to UK in 1942 when the US took over. This unit were then training and preparing for the invasion of Europe.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Not sure if this is of any help: derelict Sherman T211936, Eindhoven, Netherlands, 1945.

[Roddy de Normann]

Hanno -

Thanks for this - spotted it myself this evening while looking at the same site ! Unfortunately I have no details of that aprticular veh.

Meanwhile on the same site, there is a pic of a Sherman racing into Eindhoven on 18 Sep 44. The WD no appears to be T-232394. I hold this as a Sherman Firefly that in Apr/May 45 was KOed. The Wright & Harkness Veh Cas Report stated:

Germany - Veh creeping fwd when likely hit R-43 mine. RH front suspension unit blown off & track broken. Crew unhurt - Wright & Harkness RAC Cas Study, Jan 1946

Obviously the Sep 44 pic shows a standard Sherman V, so I am not sure if it was converted and, if so, when ?

Hope this helps

Roddy

[Roddy de Normann]

Hanno -

Doh !!!! Forgot to mention that T-232394 was 2nd (Armoured) Battalion, Irish Guards !

Apologies...

Roddy

[Mike Cecil]

Tony Smith wrote many moons ago 'I had started to sift through the info relating to carriers, but have not found them all yet!"

And neither you will Tony, because not all of the carriers produced were recorded in the ledgers, only those issued at some time with C or AIF-T numbers. Once the carriers switched to their hull numbers as the registration (circa late 41/early 42), and carriers were transferred from both the C system and AIF system to carrying their hull number, all those carriers produced subsequently were not listed anywhere in AWM126. Likewise the 'imports' that retained their home country number (but usually with the prefix, like 'USA-W' removed. The T17E1 Staghounds are a case in point: they used the US Army number less prefix as their Aust registration. Matildas are another: T-XXXX became just XXXX as the Aust registration)

AWM 126 is a bit of a mixed bag: the C system commenced in 1939, and only those vehicles then on the Army's inventory with current DD registrations were transferred to the new C system. Hence, there are, to my knowledge, no WW1 entries, for example. I think the earliest are the tanks and A/C of the 1920s, which were still in use in 1939.

Also, the books only list Army, not Navy & RAAF. More importantly, there are some small blocks of C numbers missing from the Army entries that photographs show as being issued, but they don't make the lists. Engineer plant is a particular case in point, as are a number of post-war purchases. The books also have post war entries mixed in with wartime blocks - when Army went back and filled in the blanks, so to speak, so the issues are not strictly chronological - higher rego number does not always mean later issue.


Mike