GRANT in Tuscany, Summer 1944

Attilio · #1 28-05-04, 13:40

I have found this pics of a british tank in Tuscany (Castelnuovo Berardenga) summer 1944 in a book on the WWII in Tuscany

In the legend of the figure is described as Grant tank
It is a strange Grant because the main gun on the hull is not visible and the gun of the turret is bigger than the 37 mm

Have you any details about?

Thanks

Hanno Spoelstra · #2 28-05-04, 13:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Attilio
In the legend of the figure is described as Grant tank
It is a strange Grant because the main gun on the hull is not visible and the gun of the turret is bigger than the 37 mm

Attilio, this is a Grant Command tank in use with 6th South African Armd.Div., if I recall correctly. It had both its guns removed, and a fake 75-mm gun barrel fitted in place of the 37-mm gun so it looked somewhat like a Sherman. Some even had their hull front altered with sheet metal to look like a Sherman tank even more. The Grant was liked better as a command tank because it had more room inside.

Note the Sherman style bogie fitted backwards!

HTH,
Hanno

Attilio · #3 28-05-04, 22:53

Thanks for the informations

Attilio

William Marshall · #4 14-06-04, 20:12

Attilio

Yes it was the personal tank of Maj Gen E. Poole, commander 6 SA Armd Div. it was used by him during the campaign in Italy as his cammand tank.

regards

William

Larry Hayward · #5 16-07-04, 00:48

Some years ago I wrote an article on this type of vehicle for George Bradford's AFV News and used the same photo as yours, which also appears as Photo 17 in 'Tanks Illustrated No 20 - Allied Tanks in Italy WW2 by Brian Perrett (Arms & Armour Press)The above mentioned photo dated circa April 1944 comes from the SANMMH in South African. Note that the M3 has a 'Sherman' type VVS suspension unit in the centre, mounted 'back to front' with the return roller forward! It's hard to judge but it looks to have rubber blocks on its tracks. The clear photos of this M3 I've seen suggests that it has a welded hull which is a bit of a dilemma as this would make it an M3A3 which was not used for the Grant! Perhaps I'm seeing things- or not seeing things such as the missing rivets under all that dust! There is another photo of General Poole's Grant ACV a year later, on page 78 of British and Commonwealth Armoured Formations (1919-46) by Duncan Crow (Profile Publications) which clearly shows a M3A5 with a rivetted hull and replacement later type VVS suspension units (as used on some M3A4's) on the other (right hand) side of the tank. It also had metal 'chevron style' tracks so must have had a re-work of sorts in late 1944 or early 1945. Its ultimate fate is unknown.

Hanno Spoelstra · #6 16-07-04, 08:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Larry Hayward
The clear photos of this M3 I've seen suggests that it has a welded hull which is a bit of a dilemma as this would make it an M3A3 which was not used for the Grant!

Larry,

Both the M3A3 (welded hull) and M3A5 (rivetted hull) were built as Grants, these diesel engined versions were designated Grant II.

HTH,
Hanno
Sherman Register

Larry Hayward · #7 16-07-04, 23:38

Thanks Hanno, I must buy better reference books on the M3, as every single one in my collection says that the Grant I was an M3 and Grant II was an M3A5, with the M3A1 to A4 being Lee Tanks

If the Grant ACV seen above has a welded hull, and it certainly looks like it, then it is definitely a different Grant ACV to the one used by General Poole in Bologna in April 1945. Perhaps the Division had several in use all at once.

Alex Blair (RIP) · #8 17-07-04, 02:44

Larry..
According to the gospel,the TM 9-2800 which is the tech manual listing all the standard US vehicles up to the publ;ished date the M3 series medium tank was "Commonly known as the General Lee"
Now the M3 .,M3A1,M3A2 had the R975 Continental 9 Cyl radial engine...
The M3A3 and M3A5 had the Twin Six diesel,6046 series 71,commonly called the 6-71...
The M3A4 had the Chrysler A-57 multibank engine...
The hulls were either Cast ,riveted or welded..
I will post examples of each and identify..
The pictured tank "Grant" appears to have a M3 Lee hull with maybe a Brit turret(I'm guessing)...It isn't a Lee turret that I can see..\

I have no info on the Grant ...and don't know how they became named Grant ...If someone could enlighten me ,I would be greatfull
M3..Riveted hull....

Alex Blair (RIP) · #9 17-07-04, 02:46

M3A1 ...Cast hull....

Alex Blair (RIP) · #10 17-07-04, 02:47

M3A2...Welded hull....

Alex Blair (RIP) · #11 17-07-04, 02:49

M3A3,M3A5 Welded hull...

Alex Blair (RIP) · #12 17-07-04, 02:51

M3A4..Riveted hull..
I hope this helps to update your M3 Series file..

Larry Hayward · #13 18-07-04, 23:18

For the correct designations for US Tanks of WW2, you can't do better than Hanno's web site, which I have just spotted on one of the other threads:-

British designations for US medium tanks and related AFVs

According to the above, the welded hull M3A3 was also supplied to the British as the Grant II, so thats confirmed it for me - the Grant ACV in Tuscany is a welded hull Grant II and the Division had two separate vehicles. See attached photo for the other one in Bologna April 1945.

So we now know the Grant in Tuscany didn't have to have its hull taken from a 'left over' US Army Lee and be combined with a spare Grant turret, as it was built as a M3A3 / Grant II. Only later was it modified to an ACV, most probably in Egypt, where the 6th SA Div assembled prior to going to Italy.