Can anyone identify this tank?

[Murray]

The attached picture was found in my Father-in-laws logbook. He was a Merchant Marine captured by the Germans in 1941. The picture looks like it was sent to him in the prison camp.

I am curious about the tank shown in the picture. I suspect it may be a Renault FT-17. Some of these were used by the Canadian army for training.

Can anyone confirm this?

[Philliphastings]

Hello,

Looks to me like a british whippet tank of WW1 vintage. I will check my references and get back to you.

I had a photograph of a similar vehicle from the side which I sent to bart Vanderveen before his death. Sadly it never made into print in Wheels & Tracks...

Cheers

Phill Hastings

[Philliphastings]

Hello again, Yes it is a British Medium A Cavalry tank, 'Whippet'

Length - Over 20 feet
Width - 9 feet
Weight - 14 tons
Twin engines (one per track)
Armament - three hotchkiss machine guns
Speed - 8 Mph

Can find more details and specs if need be...

Cheers

Phill

[Hanno Spoelstra]

I agree with Phil, this is a Tank Medium Mark A, nicknamed Whippet. It was used in action at the end of WW1, and continued to be used for training long after that.

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

I wonder if this is the one still at the Borden museum today? I'll betcha...

[Philliphastings]

Hello again,

The photo which I sent to Bart was from the estate of a returned Australian Soldier, who had mailed the picture to his sweetheart back home in WW1.
On the back was written words to the effect of 'this is an english whippet tank what done good service for us at ****** '

Now I haven't seen that photo since about 1997 but I THINK the location was Amiens. Would this have been correct or is my memory failing?

Cheers

Phill Hastings

[Murray]

Thanks

Was the Whippet used in Canada. I am trying to find the origin of the picture, I suspect it was from Canada, partially because of the snow.

[Philliphastings]

Sorry Murray, I can't provide any further information regarding the Whippett in Canadian service, however,

*Whippets first used in anger at Colincourt, March 1918
* About 200 made in 1917/18 period by William Foster & Co Ltd, Lincoln
*Crew 3
* Powered by two Tyler 6 Cyl Petrol 45 Bhp engines
*Speed 12 Km/Hr
*Armour 5-14mm
*range 40 miles

Cheers

Phill Hastings

[Philliphastings]

Finally, without getting too far off topic, I have studied the battlemaps and worked out where Australian Soldiers would have been exposed to the British whippet Tanks in action.

8 August 1918 near Villers Bretonneux where canadian forces were also in action on the left flank, british to the right flank

Ok enough of that now...

Cheers

Phill Hastings

[Murray]

Thanks all!! I'll change my web site to reflect the type of tank.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by Murray
Thanks

Was the Whippet used in Canada. I am trying to find the origin of the picture, I suspect it was from Canada, partially because of the snow.

Murray;

I'd say that the photo was taken at Camp Borden, here in Ontario, sometime in 1940-41.

Cheers

[Murray]

Thanks Mark:

I believe the photo was taken in the fall of 1941 -at least that fits with other photos in the logbook. It is also helpful that you feel it was taken at Bordon.
This leads me to belive that this photo was sent to Tommy directly. There are a number of other photos in the log that were sent to other POWs, but these appear to be mainly British.
Some of the photos from the log will be used in a book about the Merchant Marine POWs.

Murray

[Steve Guthrie]

Hi there

I picked this photo up at a Militaria show a few years back.

[Bob Carriere]

The building at the left hand side looks almost the same.... the air vent on the building in the background matches...even the discoloration of the roofing paper....maybe a year apart with additional construction having taken place ...ie chimney

.....awful stange coincidence...... even the the shadows on the tank are the same...... like it never moved...

...but one could say that all barracks look the same from afar..still.

[Bob Carriere]

What are the chances the tracks would be stopped at excatly the same offset...... and what is tha unusual angle iron bracket on the right hand side.... on both pictures....

Enough said I 'm going to bed.....

[Mark W. Tonner]

Murray;

Two views of the Medium A - Whippet:

Cheers

[Philliphastings]

Check out

http://afvinteriors.hobbyvista.com/whip/whip.html

for some more interesting details on this vehicle.

Cheers

Phill Hastings

[Murray]

Thanks everyone for your responses.

Bob, if you don't mind I'd like to include your photo on my website. I managed to find some additional pictures of Whippets on the web, but none of them seemed to have that piece of angle iron above the tracks. This model in the attached picture has them over all of the tracks.

Thanks again
Murray

[Murray]

The attachment did show. Hopefully here it is.

[gcrossley]

Hi all,

I would say that is the Borden tank. I have a photo (to be attached separately) of the same tank taken in Sept 1940. The damage in the armour on the left front corner of the cab is the same.

I think the inscription of Debert, 1945 was written on the second photo in error. It is unlikey the Vickers Mk VI B in the background would have been in use by that time.

Here's a quote from the Armour Bulletin in 1983, describing the Borden tank's partial restoration.

The 1918 Whippet Tank had arrived in Canada shortly after World War One and eventually was transported to CFB Borden during the 1930's. With the development of the Worthington Tank Park, the Whippet took its rightful place as one of the more unique AFVs in the park. With the passage of time the Whippet was starting to show her age. Large cracks had appeared in her armour and vandalism had resulted in further ugly damage.

In October 1982, CFSAOE Vehicle Company provided a Leopard ARV to lift the 14 ton tank onto a lowbed for transporting to the Militia Training Centre AVGP Hangar. During the next eight months, militiamen employed servicing the AVGPs, volunteered spare time to gut the Whippet, remove the two engines, replace the floor and control mechanism and finally repaint for presentation. A plexiglass door was installed to allow visitors a clear view of the fighting compartment and driver's station and controls. On completion, the Leopard ARV once again was called upon to pull the much lighter Whippet Tank into the museum hangar. The Whippet took up its last resting spot beside the much younger Centurion.

This web page has some other info on the origins of the tank. It may have been one of the ones sent to Canada for use in War Bond drives. I recall seeing a photo of a Mk IV or Mk V being used for that purpose.

http://www.eagle.ca/~harry/vehicles/worth/allied.htm

Cheers,

Gord Crossley

[gcrossley]

Here's the picture.

I to looks like the tank is in need of a good coat of paint, which sems to have been applied by the time the first picture in this thread was taken.

Gord

[Steve Guthrie]

Hi there

Interesting.

My (mistaken) assumption was whoever wrote 'Debert Nova Scotia' on the original photo was correct. That the person in the photo either wrote it himself, or instructed someone else directly to do so.

There is a lot of evidence here the photo was taken at Bordon.

Perhaps the caption was written long after the event or by someone who was making a guess as to where it was taken.

We shouldn't be too hard on the writer. Do YOU have correct captions on all your photographs?


Steve

[gcrossley]

I agree,

You have to be careful with captions on photos. Even though the one I posted said Borden on the back I had to check our War Dairy to see if any of the dates fit. The Garrys were in Debert in 1941, but only for a week in December, so they wouldn't have been wearing shorts.

It is true that photos are often identified long after the fact (like we are doing now). We recently received a number of good photos from a veteran including one marked "Normandy beach 1944". It shows a MK II Ram on a road with a damaged building behind it. The sign on the building is in English, and the tank has the early red/white/red identification flash on the tranmission cover. I was more likely taken during training in 43 or 44.

Even the National Archives has photos showing DD Valentines and LCAs on a British beach captioned at 'June 6th 1944'.

Unless the person marking the photo is a historian or armour enthusiast, it is an easy mistake to make. More fun for us to figure it all out though.

Gord Crossley