1953 m38a1 cdn

[wingnut]

Hi I have a 1953 m38a1 cdn cfr 53-32744 and would like to find out any history on it. Also would anyone know how this batch of cdn jeeps came to be in the u.k. thanks in advance . best regards Bernard.

[Ed Storey]

Bernard; do you have the vehicle's serial number? It could have been a 4 Brigade vehicle (Germany) that was sold as surplus in Europe.

[maple_leaf_eh]

There is a little book published by Clive Law at Service Publications that will help fill in the blanks on your Jeep. The early contracts are better described than the later ones, but for less than $20 you will learn more than any of us can remember.

[Frank v R]

all the history you will find about your vehicle is in the layers of paint, time to wet sand and be gentle some of the markings will be decals ,DO NOT SANDBLAST !! the vehicle is too old to find records within the CF, you may be lucky and have one of the jeeps that took part in Nato Ex in Norway, nice Cam scheme, please send me (click here) a 3/4 front photo of your vehicle for the data base with the CFR# in the photo , it would be great if you can post some general photos of your vehicle for interesting details, you may have a Willy's or Ford produced M-38A1 cdn, the Willys are rare, your CFR number also tells us that the vehicle was not equipped with radios upon issue, 32 being non radio , 33 radio equipped , this may have changed later during the vehicles service life, hope this helps

[Ed Storey]

Frank: What about the M38A1s that have a CFR which starts with 31?

[wingnut]

Hi thank you everyone for your replies to my questions. the serial number on the dash plate is 200578 date is 2-53.Built by ford at the windsor plant. the jeep is in very good condition and looks like it has never had a major rebuild although it has been repainted a few times. It is now marked up as a u.s. army jeep but i would like to do it in it,s original service markings if i can find any .I do already have the book m38a1 quarter ton truck in canadian service by andrew iarocci but is there another. I will try to get some help to post some pics soon as i,m not too good on computers. Best regards bernard.

[Ed Storey]

Bernard, the book by Andrew Iarocci is the one that Terry was talking about. Good to hear that you have a copy.

[BCA]

From my understanding the CFR number system (Canadian Forces Registration number) has the prefix year when the number was assigned. In this case: 53 for 1953. Then a dash mark. In the case of the 1/4-ton jeep the next digit is 3 which signifies the weight class of the vehicle, in this case a 1/4-ton truck. This leaves only 4 more digits.
I believe these four digits started at 0001 for the first 1952 M38 (i.e 52-30001) and progressed to about 52-3220 or so. I believe when the 1953 M38A1 jeeps were received that the last 4 digits of the CFR number were continuous with the last issued M38 CFR.
It is interesting to note that the ordnance code for the M38 and the M38A1 were the same: 2230 wo /wn and 2231 w/wn so this implies that the army didn't really differentiate between the M38 and M38A1.
There is photographic evidence of M38's with CFR's like 53-33xxx but I don't know why this high series existed. As Frank suggests it may be related to specialized equipment that was added and therefore the CFR was changed. However I would want to see documentation on this possibility.
Of particular interest of the UK M38A1 would be to know the Ford serial number and the date of delivery (MM-DD-YY) on the dashboard brass serial plate.

[BCA]

Sorry I missed the addition post with the Ford serial number. Good information. My particular interest is the relationship of the CFR numbers with the Ford serial numbers and dates of delivery for Canadian M38's. There is no direct relationship between either the M38 CFR number, the Ford serial number or the date of delivery : just broad trends.
Many jeeps are missing their original brass dashboard data plates sets: often taken as souvenirs. I would be interested in serial numbers and dates of delivery for any serial plates that people might have in there data plate collections.
To add to the confusion, Canada had some Willys M38's (generally October 1951 dated) and examples of jeeps that had additional data plates added when they were rebuilt. There are also examples of Willys M38A1's adopted by Canada, given CFR numbers and the typical ad-on convoy light. .... Brian

[mel gabel]

I have a 1953 M38A1CDN made by Ford under contract LV600 - ARMY.

The mfr serial number is F200574 - 4 units prior to the jeep at the start of this thread.

The CFR number is 53-32610. No evidence of any radio equipment having been added to the jeep, or any other modifications by the Cdn Forces, other than turn signals common to military jeeps of this era.

The delivery date is 2-12-53. Not sure if that means Feb 12 or Dec 2.

This jeep came directly from Crown Assets during a public auction in Nov 1974 at the Downsview base in Toronto, Ontario.

[wingnut]

Hi. the fake u,s. army hood number on this jeep reads 231253 . Not sure how this was arrived at. also data plate marked lv600 army. Thanks for your input . Best regards Bernard.

[wingnut]

Hi, these are the photos requested! Best regards Bernard.

[Frank v R]

Hi Ed , I do not have info on a 31 , just the other ones , found it in some of my early 60's paperwork , I need to talk to Eric on some of the photos he's had in CMP , and I'll take a look to see if there is a pattern for the "31" vehicles , I'm only going to look at the M-38A1cdn's

[BCA]

All M38CDN and M38A1's were stamped with a "Delivered Date" of the format MM-DD-YY or Month-Day-Year. Be warned that the Ford serial number sequence does not always match the date sequence. For example F-200445, 5-5-53 has delivered date much later than F-200459, 2-12-53. So do not interpolate missing dates by comparison with other documented jeeps.
Bernard: your serial number is stamped much more clearly than most however I can not make out the month of your delivered date. It is most likely a 2 , 3, 4 or 5 (Feb/Mar/Apr/May) but take note of my comments about out-of-sequence dates. Can you examine it closely to help identify the month?
The lower right corner has an inspector's stamp. I think it is the common "IS" over the logo with "E19" below the logo, although I have seen variations. Can you confirm? The inspector's logo is often referred to as the "Canadian Tire" logo due to its shape. Can anyone confirm the meaning of this logo or the use of this type of stamp: unique to the inspector at the Ford plant? Seen on other vehicles or army equipment like firearms etc.
Finally: the lowest CFR number that I have seen on an M38A1CDN is 53-32181. Ignoring the date (52 or 53) and the first "3" which is the 1/4-ton vehicle class this leaves only 4 more digits to identify the jeep series of vehicles. Considering these last 4 digits: I believe they started numbering M38's (roughly 2165 made) at 0001 and continued straight through into the M38A1's (roughly 700 vehicles). The highest M38A1 CFR number I have seen is 53-32908).
I propose that the a block of CFR numbers ending in 33XXX was set aside for US-purchased Willys vehicles, rebuilt vehicles, special equipment vehicles or for re-assigning a new CFR number at a later date. The date pre-fix is largely irrevelent: the army only used the last 5 digits of the CFR for assigning a license plate.
Comments welcome. there is lots to learn.
....Brian

[rob love]

I always considered the inspectors mark as a stylized broad arrow, and the IS to stand for "inspector services". The Alpha numeric underneath is would be the identifier for the technical inspector.

The arrow is, of course, found on everything from the 50s weapons, the 50s produced webbing, vehicles, and I believe aircraft parts. I am pretty sure I have seen that similar stamp on inspection tags from the 50s and 60s. Of course, by the 50s it meant the item was inspected, rather than as a property mark like the old C/l\.

[BCA]

CFR's have the format YY-X _ _ _ _. YY is the year that the number was assigned (not necessarily the factory date of delivery or manufacture). I have suggested previously that the "X'' is a digit that represents a class of vehicle. The following 4 digits allow a sequencial serial number to be assigned to each class of vehicle (0001-9999).
Can anyone confirm this from written documentation?
Based on my observation (vehicles I have inspected, Canadian Army Data Sheets or historical photographs) the following "X" digits were used for the following vehicles:
0: M38A1CDN2 and CDN3 jeeps, 1958 10-passenger bus, some M37's with winch.
1: Various 1956 4x2 trucks, 1956 1/2-ton panel truck, 1956 Ford C500 Fire truck, some 3/4-ton M37CDN.
3: M38CDN and M38A1CDN jeeps (1952-1953 Ford and also Willys M38 and M38A1's that were acquired by Canada).
4: M37CDN, M43 CDN, M152CDN.
5: M135CDN, M207CDN, M211CDN 6x6 2-1/2-ton trucks.
6: M26A1 Tank Transporter ("Pacific")
7: 1/4, 3/4 and 1-1/2-ton trailers (M100CDN, M101CDN, M104CDN)
9: R18 Bombardier snowmobile, 1958 "RAT" articulated snow machine.

Any candidates for "2" and "8"?

[BCA]

Bernard, I got curious about your serial plate; fortunately you posted a good photo. I find it quite unusual - but certainly not to question it's authenticity since it looks very original.
Frank v.R. and others may also notice that there are 3 different type faces used for stamping the serial number.
The most plates have a type face like your "53" date. Notice how delicate and lightly stamped it is. Most plates I have seen have this exact style for the serial number and the date, and are very uniform in spacing and pressure: i.e. machine stamped in one process.
I have looked closely and do not see a Month stamp. However the "2" which is in the space normally used for the Day is a heavy type face: As if it was an after-thought. Also there is a dash before and after the "2" suggesting the original intention of a MM-DD-YY format. One possibility is that the "53" was pre-stamped without a MM-DD. Later only the "2" was added, in which case it may mean either February or the 2nd day of an unknown month.
Finally the F-200578 is definitely a bolder typeface than normal M38CDN and M38A1 CDN serial numbers.
My guess is that the jeep had a problem on the assembly line, was pulled aside and not stamped until it was approved for delivery. At that point a different set of stamps was used and the stamper overlooked assigning a day and only stamped "2' for February.
If you PM me and give me your email address then me then I can send you an image of a typical serial plate.
A most interesting plate and thank you for sharing. .... Brian

[rob love]

Brian
I believe 8 was for the armour, like ferrets and centurians

[BCA]

Rob: thanks for the suggestion - so far all I have to go on is photos in various data sheets and none of them show CFR's for some of the armoured vehicles. I am sure there are lots of historical photos out there that will confirm or debunk the theory of blocking out particular CFR series for specific vehicles.

[Ed Storey]

What Brian outlined for CFR numbers was the intent when the system was first devised. Since the 1970s this well defined numbering system has changed a bit as older fleets of vehicles were retired and new ones brought into service.

As Rob stated Centurion and Ferret X digits began with 8

Looking at some of the other armoured vehicles:

Leopard X digits beginning with 1, 6, 7 and 8
Coyote X digits begin with 3
M113 Series X digits begin with 3
Lynx X digits begin with 3
LAV III digits beginning with 0, 3 and 4
AVGP Series X digits began with 3
RG-31 X digits beginning with 3 and 8

Softskin vehicles:

M151A2 X digits began with 0 and 2
Chevrolet CK20903 Series began with 2
MLVW Series X digits begin with 1, 3, 5 and 6
5 ton Series X digits began with 0, 1, 2 and 6

Maybe it is me, but it looks the original ordered system has changed.

[rob love]

Yes, they now simply use the next number(s) that are currently unused. They will reserve a block of numbers for a fleet, but again, it will be sequential to what was last issued when the decision was made. For a while I could actually date a vehicle by it's CFR number plate, based on the numbers in use. But I have kind of lost contact with that part of the world.

Just to throw a wrench in the system, when a plate is lost or stolen, a new CFR is to be issued. That is why you will find photos or records of 5/4 tons or other fleets where the CFRs are way out of sequence. This made the mechanic's records hard to maintain....best bet was to just make up a new license plate with the original number and nobody was the wiser.

Another anomaly is for locally manufactured or procured trailers, and sometimes ATVs. They would have a license plate consisting of a base's UIC followed by a single digit. Don't ask me what they do after they use up the 10 available numbers on a base.

[BCA]

Ed and Rob: Thanks for your comments. The blocking out of CFR numbers in the early 1950's probably had some pattern but as time went on it became more of a free-for-all. Given the lack of written documentation about the production and serial numbers in the early 1950's, the only way to piece together a story is to inspect surviving vehicles. Fortunately a surprising number of 1952 M38CDN and 1953 M38A1 jeeps survive and that makes the process interesting.

[maple_leaf_eh]

CFR xx-32744 has been reissued to a 1997 DEW Engineering Ltd CDN1-SMP TRAILER 5 KW GEN SET.

So, unless you get a secondary source like those used by Andrew Iarocci for his pamphlet, there is nothing easily available.

[Ed Storey]

Unfortunately many of the records were either not saved or are still awaiting declassification at LAC. Andrew was challenged to find documentation in which to write his M38A1CDN book.

[Frank v R]

Brian , I think that Colleen's A1 sort of blows your idea of 33XXX for the Willys vehicles out of the water as her A1 is a Ford CFR 53-33192 , I need to get the CFR's off of the frame of my other 3 53 A1's and see what they have to tell,

[Al Nickolson]

This M38Al CDN was once owned by retired RCAF Lt. General Donald C. Laubma. He told me that he purchased it at a surplus action in Germany and had it paint blue before shipping it back to Canada. The number on the frame is 53-32794 engine number MD38710. The data plate with serial number is missing.

Al

[Al Nickolson]

Photo of frame number.

Al

[Frank v R]

I see it has the signal light mod on the fenders , thanks Al

[wingnut]

Hi i'm thinking that the hood number on this jeep is the birth date of a guy who owned this jeep back in the 80's . brian i have tried to p.m. you but could not get it to send feel free to p.m. if you can. best regards. bernard.

[jeepfinger]

Hi Bernard,
Dave has just confirmed that it wasn't Brian DOB, but may be his wife's.
Dave