1953 m38a1 cfr

chris vickery · #1 21-12-12, 05:27

Wanting to know if anyone has any info that may help me out.
I went to look at a '53 M38A1 this evening. It has a frame number of 53-33136. I was wondering if anyone knows where this falls into production or if it even falls into Canadian purchase? The reason that I ask is that the jeep has the typical '53 style data plate that indicates a build date of 3/53 yet identifies Toledo as the mfg. As I understand it, Canadian jeeps in '53 were procured from Ford Windsor. Did we use or receive any from the USA prior to adopting them and having them built at home? I know that the data tag does not necessarily always match the frame as it might have been swapped out.
I tend to think that maybe this was a US built jeep, it was in civilian hands prior to 1978. When did our first 53s go to surplus?
The other item which confuses me is that the jeep came from London, ON in 1978 which is interesting in itself due to the geography in that CFB London and Base Workshop and Stores were located there. I know a lot of stuff was surplussed from London.
So as it is, some clues indicate a USA lineage while other evidence suggest Canadian???

Frank v R · #2 21-12-12, 15:23

Hi Chris,going by the CFR it would make it a comms vehicle, I did have a 53 that had a U.S. data plate on the wheel well but it was a CDN vehicle , was ex 1st Hussars and had been used in Norway, the Nato cam paint was under the last coat of semi-gloss, I think at this point unless the Ottawa boys can come up with paper work on the 53's this may stay a mystery, I was unable to come up with a good answer on the other one, maybe these vehicles were aquired soldier style or were U.N. pool vehicles that we aquired , the U.S. did send vehicles to many U.N. locations without ever sending troops , some of the guys from my unit were in Sinai and the photos showed U.S. M-37 and M-715 vehicles mixed with the CDN vehicles, our 53's started coming out late sixties into the seventies , I remember seeing some in the Levy yard during that period, it was a big playground for all the local kids at that time myself being one of them, just for info Colleen's is 53-33192, can you let me know the statis of this vehicle and get me a 3/4 front photo of the 53 and your other one,
regards Frank

rob love · #3 21-12-12, 16:40

Re the disposal of the Jeeps, there would have been some disposed of with each acquisition of new Jeeps, as well as during the downsizing of the military around 71/72.

So when the Cdn 2 came out, some M38Cdn and M38A1Cdn would have been surplus. Same when the Cdn3 came out, and finally, with the adoption of the M151A2 in the mid 70s, the last of the early fleets would have been disposed of.

Standard Military Pattern vehicles were not generally disposed of on a whim. If they were disposed of outside of the fleet replacement programs, or downsizing eras, it was usually due to severe accident damage. Even when estimates would exceed the repair expenditure limit on SMP vehicles, Ottawa would almost always come back and authorize the repair.

chris vickery · #4 21-12-12, 17:05

Sometimes when I purchase a vehicle I find it exciting to know what it has been used for or even by whom or where. I think that this will be a mystery on this one.
Unfortunately, like a lot of old mvs that have been sitting so long and civilianized, it gets to a point where it is hardly worth the effort or time to resurrect it.
I think this particular unit may be useful only as a parts machine; it was difficult to ascertain what the pros and cons were as the frame has been butchered, engine removed, 24 v changed to 12v etc. It does have several decent parts but the guys price does not match what I think its worth. What is scrap at today?

Ed Storey · #5 21-12-12, 17:43

In case anyone is curious, CFR 97-33136 is now a 1997 DEW ENG LTD CDN1-SMP Trailer Cargo 850 which is held by the RCDs in Petawawa.

rob love · #6 21-12-12, 17:43

I have yet to see a military jeep that is not worth more than scrap, although some of the severe rust cases you guys experience out your way may be the exception to that observation.

If one has been a long time Jeep nut, he will usually have multiple of all the 24V spares hidden away in crates, boxes and tote trays. Besides, after 60 years, much of the original wiring etc will need to be changed anyway. It really comes down to the frame and body tub, as well as if the engine is still good. All the rest is easily replaced.

chris vickery · #7 22-12-12, 03:33

Hi Rob. I understand your sentiments, and usually those are my same thoughts.
When I went to look at this one, it was described as a garage stored jeep (every restorers dream aka barn find) that had been tucked away for the last 35 years. You can imagine my unbridled excitement, only to be disallusioned upon viewing it. It may have been stored for the last 35 years indoors but the life it must have endured previously tells another story.
I always try to see the good in any diamond in the rough, to pick out the good points and to try and ignore the bad ones.
Of course looking for a jeep, my first thoughts are to find a nice body, folloed by a decent frame, engine and dodads.
Well, in this case lets start with the frame...
-engine mounts and pitman arm mount torch cut out
-bent shock mounts, front axle
-broken springs all around
-engine pulled, sitting in the cormer of garage with an apparently bad piston according to the owner
-all 24v wiring and accesories gone and converted to 12v
-the only body parts without major dents, rust and/or damage was the windshield frame and front grill
-rusted out front floors and toolbox bottom and passenger rocker panel
The good-
-driver and pass seat, rear seat
-good used gas tank,
-data plates and a matching ownership
misc small parts
So, in a nutshel, frame and motor are scrap, body is negligible and most of the military dodads are gone.
The only reason I asked about scrap pricing is that I would have a hard time believing there is more than $500 worth of useable spares plus the time and trouble to recover it and drag it home.
Thoughts?

chris vickery · #8 22-12-12, 03:47

Further to my post, can anyone tell me if it was common practice for US jeeps to have the number stamped on the frame rail or was this only a Canadian thing???

rob love · #9 22-12-12, 05:32

Jeeez, and I have a spare frame sitting here too. And a spare body tub, although I think I will hold onto both until I get around to the restoration of the M38 that's out in the back lineup.

The frame stamping was a Canadian thing, although it will likely have been done to the US produced but Cdn owned Jeep as well. Hard to pin an exact date on when they were stamped....we could narrow it to between 1856 and 1967 I guess. I'll have to look a the next gasser 5 ton I see...they were early 60s vintage, and see if they were stamped as well.

Hanno Spoelstra · #10 22-12-12, 08:12

Thoughts?

Walk away and find a better one, they aren't that rare ...

H.

chris vickery · #11 22-12-12, 15:28

Thanks Hanno. I have a 1970 CDN3 that is almost finished and was looking for another project. Of course spares are nice to have, currently I have a couple 67 CDN2s sitting around. If I get enough spares I could build another one but always looking for the obviously hard to find items like a decent body.
One of my 67s has a really nice frame and I have a good running engine on my shop floor, I figured if this one had a good body at least I would have all the ingredients....

Does anyone know the serial number range for Canadian purchased 1953 A1s???? I think we bought around 700 units if memory serves.

Casey B · #12 30-12-12, 19:51

Hi Chris
Been away and have now just seen the thread. have to agree with the others there are better finds out there than the work that you'll have to do on that one...unless you like shackling yourself to a huge lump of steel and working endlessly towards the light at the end of the tunnel...?
My 53 M38A1 shows the original everything and never left British Columbia. It was used in Chilliwack and got some use out of the BCR's that's all I know or can find out.

The CFR is 53-32490
date manufactured is 2-2-53
by the Ford motor co. of Canada
serial number is F-200512
It was surplused in 2-14-1976 hence her name Valentine.

So there is a start for you.

You may have to consider coming out our way to find one that is workable and by our way yeah I mean west but that's only Manitoba! Right Rob?
Good luck Casey

rob love · #13 30-12-12, 23:24

Casey
We in Manitoba are actually the geographic center of Canada (and for that matter North America,) so we should technically be central Canada. However, since the universe theoretically circles around a certain un-named Canadian city which contains the CN tower, we are therefore relegated to being the start of Western Canada.

Not sure the status of BC these days. It has started leaning very left, and with a few more of those earthquakes you guys have been getting, may break off altogether and float away.

And yes, Jeep picking in these provinces is very good, however Easterners should note that they require a permit from Prairie Command to either purchase, transport, or even advertise or solicit for military hardware anywhere West of Thunder Bay Ontario.

Comox Air Force Museum · #14 31-12-12, 17:45

Chris, I got this info from the Ford heritage center in Oakville.
Build dates. 11-28-52 to 3-24-53
Serial numbers. 200041 to 200750 (709 units)
Jeeps were delivered to 27 Ord Depot London
Hope this helps.
Rob

peter simundson · #15 01-01-13, 21:16

The 53 I just sold was 53-33205 and had US data plates. But so worn as to be unreadable. Of course no history as it has been wiped out.

It was OK. You should have bought it.

Peter S

chris vickery · #16 01-01-13, 21:36

Peter, you are right....

chris vickery · #17 20-01-13, 01:55

I have since procured said jeep and now rests in my stable with the rest of the "fleet"
As it turns out, this jeep is actually more salvageable than first thought.
I guess sellers really should drag things out into the light of day, dust off all the crap and forgo the lawn and garden equipment, misc junk etc.
This one will be a keeper, its actually better now I can see it.