Operational safety at reenactments

[Jim Burrill]

This is just a starting point. Most folks on this list have real-world armour experience in the field, or have years of taking restored armour to shows. Some also reenact and others dont.

Our club - the 15th (Scottish ) Reconnaissance Regiment has accumulated about 9 WW2 Armoured vehicles. As more are ready for the road, our participation at Mid-Atlantic events is growing.

Often, we are asked to load non-unit reenactors on our vehicles. sometimes it is the "wow" factor of "can I ride on yourxxxxx?" to organizers begging some space to help lift some troops to a needed area.

We have pre-event safety checks among the owners and their crews for such things as fire extinguishers, flashlights, small first aid kits, drinking water, eye-wash, goggles and what do we have as a radio net for the event and what channel is for medic events.

At the event, we try to get the organizers to give us five minutes with the troops taking the field to hold a really quick "Why the PBI are know as "Crunchies". and talk about blind spots, stopping distances, tactical backing up (we do it!) and why using the armor as a bit of cover is a dodgy idea.

We brief people how to run over to a vehicle to say something to the driver, (dont - talk to the guy in the turret!)

I would like to end up with a formatted checklist to print and take to events.

Any items you lot can think of please chime in. Also any safety "this is no shits"that we can repeat to the lads to drive a point home.

I have to say, in our area, the Germans have spilled more blood than us due to "pinch injuries" with their converted OT -810s and Hetzers. Fingers in closing armoured doors and dropped hatches coming to mind.

So, happy to share the results with any club.

Never a real military Safety Officer, but sat through many, many safety briefs during my 20 years in NAVAIR and see the value in them.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Start with the 5 senses - sight, sound, touch, taste, smell. The humour will keep peoples' attention.

Sight - vision blocks; blind spots

Sound - shouting doesn't always work, except to raise people's blood pressure; squeaky parts are moving all the time, don't become part of the grease they need.

Touch - pinch points; three points of contact when climbing; where to NOT stand inside

Taste - stay in the real world! Don't lick the paint even if you are having an erection just being near a .....;

Smell - diesel exhaust, fumes and smells can be overwhelming;

[Chuck Anderson]

Great topic Jim!

Two offerings.........

1. Have a designated POC to communicate with the driver. When you're "in the hole", you have no way of knowing if everyone has mounted up safely or not and everyone in/on the vehicle is yelling, laughing, not paying attention. If you generally ask if its clear, you'll get 20 different answers from 20 different people. The POC would be the only voice the driver should rely on to move the vehicle. He would also be the decision maker as to when the vehicle is "full". I've been told that all was clear and as soon as I stated to roll, everyone is freaking out yelling "STOP!!!". I didn't know if I just killed someone or what.... it turned out that someone really wanted to ride after we were moving and tried to jump on. The riders on the back were "guests" and didn't feel they had the right/responsibility to tell that person "no".

2. No leaning equipment/weapons against the vehicles. This may not be a "safety" issue per se, but it can lead to a major safety concern. Whether armour or soft skins, I've seen rifles get driven over and troops panicking to grab their gear from falling into the road wheels.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Something I find I have to do with my HMV is remind people that just because it is painted green and has lots of steel, that doesn't mean it is indestructable.

I tell them my M151A2 is a 40-year old collector's car and it is surprisingly fragile. Parts for mine are easy to get on the internet, but if you have a post-WW2 Czech made half-track, chances are good if something breaks it will take weeks or months to find and get the parts.

So, don't slam the doors! Don't drop the hatch covers! If it doesn't open easily, don't force it! If it looks breakable, for FU@K's(!!!) sake don't try to find out!

Finally, appeal to people's sense of ownership. One event I went to, a visitor was really shocked that everything was privately owned. (He must have thought the Army has a warehouses of WW2 British, Canadian, American and German history pieces.) Remind the reenactors that these are personal vehicles that you are sharing with the community. The golden rule applies. Don't abuse your generousity!

[Frank v R]

As a former CF member , very long time vehicle collector , living history type I have seen many things that did not need to happen , just this past year in the hobby 3 high profile deaths with tracked vehicles, bottom line not properly trained, I have seen parts of M1's fly past me , wrong ammo, I have a real problem with people that do not take this seriously , tracked vehicles KILL people , you must have intercomm systems, kids are NOT crew commanders, vehicles must be safe ! , there is no room for stupid! , ground guides ! , all you former CF types know what I am talking about and we must police our hobby to keep the hobby and everyone safe from the stupid ones,

[rob love]

Echo what Frank says. Trained ground guides. Also, 20+ tons of steel is not a play thing for a novice to drive, no matter how young and pretty she may be. I also don't let anyone climb on armour. Unlike a soft skin vehicle that has a little give, armour does not, and it will only be teeth coming out if the "climber" is lucky. I provide work platforms for the public to view the vehicles from higher, with suitable ropes to prevent climbing in.

[Jason Ginn]

This is a great topic with much good info already!

I can say for me the following points were key.

- 0 booze before or during vehicle ops

- full vehicle checks before daily ops. Inc. fire ext, comms, fuel leaks and levels, track or tire condition, battery hold down, brakes steering and lights. Gas fires in armoured boxes are really bad!

- functional comms for CC and Dvr.

- ground guide(s)!!!!! Not just anybody that can flap about like they are trying to fly, but a TRAINED person that uses the same signals that the driver and Cc are trained in.

- when a vehicle moves it has a ground guide and or commander. Anything in public spaces and for loading should have a GG at all times.

- never fuel in public spaces

- all crew should be trained on how to safely enter and exit the vehicle, particularly in an emergency.

- no matter who owns the vehicle the CC is in charge! The driver does make decisions unless there is a safety concern.

- driver and CC should have and understand each other's commands. Real emergency stop vs stop when you have a chance comes to mind.

- never reverse a arms vehicle without a guide.

- do not let public into vehicles without supervision. They flick switches fall out and bang into things. It's a fact!

-crew and passenger rule. if you are sitting in a vehicle stay sitting. Standing , stay standing. People get hurt moving around in a moving vehicle.

- don't let people sit on a vehicle. If they are in it they should have a seat.

Probably lots more but this is all I can think of now.

Hope this help.

[Edwin Wand]

Do you have a picture of the type of work platform you use. Its an interesting idea. Indiscriminate climbing on soft skins can be dangerous, especially for children whose parents are not with them or just don't think.

We never though of platforms but it might be an idea whose time has come; but falling off a viewing platform can be as equally bone breaking as falling off an armoured vehicle.

Good point about ground guides; people who think they can run a carrier with everyone safely sitting down even with a ground guide need to find another outlet for their interests. No Cdn unit would allow carrier codrivers to be seated when the carrier was in motion. After all, the co-driver is the vehicle commander. He may also be either the convoy commander or the signal relayer to the carriers behind.

[rob love]

Ed

I don't have a photo handy but I'll snap one tomorrow when I am at work. Basically they are steps with a platform on top and guard rails surrounding the upper platform with handrails for the stair portion. They are available from 3 feet to around 16 feet in height.

I managed to pick up 8 brand new platforms from the tax department in Winnipeg on a crown asset sale. They cost the government around $450 each, and cost me around $50 each. Previous to that I bought 3 from the Germans when they left Shilo for $10 each. Now there was a bargain.

Here is a shot of one from the internet. They are available commercially from places like Acklands.

[Robert Bergeron]

Gents,

My recent safety concern is with photographers. Either amateur or professionals.On a recent HMV parade during wich i was driving my Carrier, through the streets of my town on Remembrance Day , at least two of that kind threw themselves in front of me as i was riding at close to 20 MPH . People expect we can stop on a dime.

In one instance i caught the lower part of my pant leg on the something and had difficulty reaching the brake pedal down low below the sloping armour.

I was barely able to stop in time 5 feet from the guy. He tought it was funny and smiled, thinking i was showing off. He had his objective on my face so i started smiling for posterity . He almost got badly injured or killed and he did not even know it.

That taught me to think ahead just like when i see deer or moose on the highway's edge. Foot off the gas pedal and on to the brakes at ready . Breaks your convoy speed and distance between vehicles but a life is worth much more than uniformity.

I agree with the posters . Stand or sit but don't move around and yes , the CC in a Carrier should be standing and looking all around. Also, don't climb , i have a very nice stepladder i carry around to help you in and out one at a time.

I look forward seeing the agreed checklist that is coming out if this tread.

[Jim Burrill]

I think I am seeing this shake out into four (at least) areas
1) Vehicle and Crew safety
2) Display safety
3) Parade/road safety
4) Tactical (reenactment) safety.


I will sort through the posts so far and chunk them that way.

This is really a "Group-mind" process, So please voice your opinions, even if someone has already mentioned something. Good to see concurrance, as well as perhaps from a slightly different perspective.

Illustrations..... Not sure how to incorporate those - not for a check list, bit for a longer "booklet" format on practical safety for HMV's.

(booklet just to contain the topics, not as in a booklet to buy. Once I get to the .pdf stage, we can all copy and share.

Illustrations - any of on-scene accidents? Can blur faces. Some of the most attention getting safety messages during my Navy days were actual photos in the safety magazine called "Approach" (here is a link to archives of several Navy magazines - http://www.gjenvick.com/Military/Nav...#axzz3uRkeyldX

Any other pictures of accidents just waiting to happen, write ups of near misses, or AARs of ones that hit.

You can see where I am going with this.

Thanks to all who have responded so far!
Jim

[jdmcm]

An ex -tanker on another forum said it best "Tanks were designed to kill people...and they don't care who that might be".

It is always nice to participate in events so people can see the vehicles and appreciate their history, but recently I stopped participating in one public event because it has become incredibly dangerous. They insist on using a tank to crush cars for the crowd (not one of mine, another local guy). Now personally the whole idea of crushing cars with a tank for the public's amusement is not my cup of tea. These aren't monster trucks or demolition derby mobiles...these are historic military vehicles, veterans if you will. They are not toys for Bubba's amusement...I think once we reduce them to this then we lose sight of what they were designed for and we do let our guard down and begin to see them as recreational vehicles...which they are not. Anyway this event has grown bigger every year but the area allocated for the car crushing has grown smaller, and with a smaller area and bigger crowds, people are within feet, sometimes inches of a 40 ton tank as it lurches, turns and moves with no signal or warning. The last event I attended the tank was doing some moves when it came to a stop, the thrilled crowd who had been following the tank began to crowd around it, when suddenly it lept into reverse and shot back about four feet as the clutch was let out...very nearly crushing a lady who had been seconds before touching the right rear fender...if the track had got her leg she would have been pulled under and crushed between the track and the pavement....Very Scary. The driver/owner of the tank did not have a person in the turret to guide him and the ground guides had no radio communication with the driver and no predetermined hand signals, just a bunch of pointing and waving. Nobody seemed to mind and my cautions fell on deaf ears so that was it for me...When I take armored vehicles out to my local Legion on Remembrance Day, it is for static display only because the area they have is much to small to even safely move the vehicle let alone do any kind of exhibition for the crowd...so it is in place at 7am and out well after everyone has cleared out...even then, driver, observer, ground guide...no exceptions

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Jim Burrill

I think I am seeing this shake out into four (at least) areas
1) Vehicle and Crew safety
2) Display safety
3) Parade/road safety
4) Tactical (reenactment) safety.

....

Jim

I was thinking about tank fire/infantry safety WRT your personnel safety category. When doing live fire runs the grunts are taught to stay behind the X roadwheel when the tank is firing. For reenacting, maybe turn that around. The reenacters must be taught to stay in front of the X roadwheel so the driver and CC can see them and understand their intentions. (Think about never walking behind a horse, and stay out of spitting range of any llamas ....)

[Frank v R]

The points of safety at public events needs to be looked at by all of us (policing our hobby) this type of thing (no control over movement of crowd) can destroy our hobby, most event insurance policies are very specific on these items, we have all seen how knee jerk reactions go , ban it , destroy it , if we see something that we know should not be happening WE ALL MUST do something about it, and if the stupid ones do not want to listen get the event closed down, I remember when after a number of airshow crashes it finally came down that crew only would be permitted in the aircraft during the show, KEEP IT SAFE!!

[Andy Mitchell]

hi guys, some of you will know me from W & P. I have been running the Arena there for 25 years involving vehicle displays and reenactments - I am glad to say without any major injuries during that time.
Its very refreshing to see this subject aired on "social media" - we always strive to keep everyone as safe as possible (particularly my team who are in the thick of it) and try to improve things every year whilst keeping the show "interesting". Always happy to learn and adopt safety that has common sense behind it !

Andy

[motto]

This is more of a 'heads up' than a cardinal rule but safety of passengers/riders does not only apply to armoured vehicles. I had a passenger damage her shins when thrown out of the troop seat of a military cargo truck and on to a set of vehicle loading ramps on the floor. The truck had lurched from side to side when crossing a gutter at an angle. Ever since then I advise passengers riding on troop seats to half turn to the front and grasp the seat back if there is any likelihood of rough conditions. I was also made aware that cargo and passengers may not mix.

Another issue is that of attitude. We can only work on the assumption that all owners/drivers/participants are willing to listen, learn and accept advice but this is not always the case. When carefully approaching a fellow I believed to be driving his truck too fast through a camping ground I was promptly told to mind my own business. These are the kind of people that bring on regulation and enforcement. Fortunately they are few and far between in this movement (it seems to be mostly populated with older guys) so hopefully a set of suggestions may be enough.

David