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  #31  
Old 07-02-21, 17:03
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default M4A2E8 Sherman

I believe the M4A2E8 Shermans were only used in Canada by the Reserves. Here is another photo of a tank minus the M1919A4 MGs.

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  #32  
Old 07-02-21, 20:00
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Storey View Post
Full marks to Le Régiment de Hull for painting their M4A2E8 in the correct markings when so many others do not.
Yes, the fresh paint and markings look swell!
Almost correct too. Can anyone spot one glaring error ?
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  #33  
Old 07-02-21, 20:05
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Storey View Post
I believe the M4A2E8 Shermans were only used in Canada by the Reserves. Here is another photo of a tank minus the M1919A4 MGs.
Maybe they ran out of rope to tie the 1919A4 on the turret?

Ed, why do you believe only the CF Reserve used the M4A2E8’s?
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  #34  
Old 07-02-21, 20:13
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Dan Martel Dan Martel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James P View Post
Weapons on the turret top, C1 SMG and a 1919 that looks fitted with a cone shaped BFA atop a tripod say ex somewhere in Canada.
Throw in 58 pattern webbing, a beret with an RCAC cap badge, coveralls with a leather name fob pinned on and two Mk5 Centurions. Also the tactical call signs white washed on the turret. I would guess Camp Borden and the RCAC School. Maybe a photo of young officers in training?

PS: The cone on the muzzle of the machine gun was not the BFA. It was a part of what kept the barrel air-cooling shield secure to the gun.

Cheers,
Dan.
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  #35  
Old 07-02-21, 20:21
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert View Post
... (paraphrased)
I have not seen the shelf before that is fitted in front of the driver's hatch in the photo above. It is certainly not factory. I am thinking that it is too late to be for anti gas paint so possibly the driver's way to avoid water being pushed up the glassis plate and into his hatch when ploughing through deep water.
David
While not all of the Canadian used M4’s from the former Russian Lend Lease order were subsequently fitted in Canada with the extension plate welded in front of the driver hatch: it is a godsend.

Not only for an extended place to step, but it helps to catch debris that migrates off the track while under way. I am convinced without a supporting (pun) CFTO to verify the intent, the shelf is intended as a step. The absence of one on the co-driver side suggests there was little concern about getting a face full of whatever.

Slips and falls off the M4, as well as any other armour, are not encouraged. There is a core (Corps ?) group who do not need to be reminded.
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  #36  
Old 07-02-21, 20:24
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Martel View Post
PS: The cone on the muzzle of the machine gun was not the BFA. It was a part of what kept the barrel air-cooling shield secure to the gun.
Cheers,
Dan.
I believe James was correct: it is the BFA replacement of the Ball round muzzle attachment. Normally painted yellow, similar to other Canadian issue small arms BFA’s, it was used with a cartridge stop (discriminator) to prevent a Ball round being introduced but also to reduce the receiver space due to the reduced length of the 30-06 Blank cartridge.

Do I see a small portion of the C1 SMG BFA showing?




Ed: I suggest these are Reg Force troopers ... a point towards Reg Force use of the M4A2E8.
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5CA592BD-0C24-4333-AACD-5E05E868A2F4.jpeg   657983AF-0B38-4F30-911D-2EBFB1004CBE.jpeg   A90F034D-F4F5-4AA1-A2E3-6715FB122457.jpeg  

Last edited by Michael R.; 07-02-21 at 20:54.
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  #37  
Old 07-02-21, 20:49
rob love rob love is offline
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I concur it is a BFA on the M1919. The hole is way too small for a 30 cal or 7.62 barrel bearing for live fire. As well, if you blow the photo up a little you can see the radial gas ports at the base of the BFA along with the front wrenching feature. I have never seen a barrel bearing on a M1919 that looks like this one for anything but blank fire.
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  #38  
Old 07-02-21, 20:51
James P James P is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Martel View Post
Throw in 58 pattern webbing, a beret with an RCAC cap badge, coveralls with a leather name fob pinned on and two Mk5 Centurions. Also the tactical call signs white washed on the turret. I would guess Camp Borden and the RCAC School. Maybe a photo of young officers in training?

PS: The cone on the muzzle of the machine gun was not the BFA. It was a part of what kept the barrel air-cooling shield secure to the gun.

Cheers,
Dan.
Hmmm.......I am sitting here with one each 1919 BFA, 1919 Front barrel bushing and recoil boaster and 1919 Front barrel bushing/recoil boaster W/flash hider (cone) and still see just a 1919 ground mounted with a BFA mounted, Maybe I am just missing something or not looking at the same pic.
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  #39  
Old 07-02-21, 21:42
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Tank Useage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael R. View Post
Maybe they ran out of rope to tie the 1919A4 on the turret?

Ed, why do you believe only the CF Reserve used the M4A2E8’s?
I was under the impression that the Regular Force used the Centurion with the Reserves getting the Shermans. As well, the M4A2E8s never served outside of Canada so every photograph should show them being used in Canada. Now I can see the Regular Force using the M4A2E8 Shermans in Canada prior to the introduction of the Centurion and would enjoying seeing an image from that time period as everything I have was taken after 1955.
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  #40  
Old 07-02-21, 21:47
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Webbing Patterns

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Martel View Post
Throw in 58 pattern webbing, a beret with an RCAC cap badge, coveralls with a leather name fob pinned on and two Mk5 Centurions. Also the tactical call signs white washed on the turret. I would guess Camp Borden and the RCAC School. Maybe a photo of young officers in training?

PS: The cone on the muzzle of the machine gun was not the BFA. It was a part of what kept the barrel air-cooling shield secure to the gun.

Cheers,
Dan.
Canadian Army Webbing Patterns were as follows 1908 (Canadian), 1908, 1913, 1925, 1937, 1951, 1964, and 1982 Pattern. 1958 Pattern was British and not adapted by Canada.
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  #41  
Old 07-02-21, 21:59
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Storey View Post
I was under the impression that the Regular Force used the Centurion with the Reserves getting the Shermans. As well, the M4A2E8s never served outside of Canada so every photograph should show them being used in Canada. Now I can see the Regular Force using the M4A2E8 Shermans in Canada prior to the introduction of the Centurion and would enjoying seeing an image from that time period as everything I have was taken after 1955.
Agreed. Nothing but a training tank assigned in Canada only.
A former CF fellow using nom de plume ‘Silverhawk’, Harold Skaarup, has written extensively on the history of these medium tanks.

The commonly used nomenclature and technical nomenclature is ‘passionately’ discussed on other social ( ? ha !) media sites.
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  #42  
Old 07-02-21, 22:00
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael R. View Post
I believe James was correct: it is the BFA replacement of the Ball round muzzle attachment. Normally painted yellow, similar to other Canadian issue small arms BFA’s, it was used with a cartridge stop (discriminator) to prevent a Ball round being introduced but also to reduce the receiver space due to the reduced length of the 30-06 Blank cartridge.

Do I see a small portion of the C1 SMG BFA showing?




Ed: I suggest these are Reg Force troopers ... a point towards Reg Force use of the M4A2E8.
Was the Regular Force still using Shermans in 1967, which is when the photograph was taken.
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  #43  
Old 07-02-21, 22:23
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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I believe there is a group (of us) on MLU Forum who were taught to “never pass a fault”. That concept does not appear to have universal acceptance.

While viewing other Ex-CF M4 gate guards from this 76mm Wet storage with HVS Suspension family, I see the same error on “Hussar” at Beechwood Cemetery, Ottawa has crept onto the Régiment de Hull tank. Or vice versa, not sure who was first !

Is it an example of a fault being accepted as correct then repeating itself?

.
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  #44  
Old 07-02-21, 22:29
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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On the photo in Post #33, there is a “XX-XXX” Registration Number on the front hull, just below the barrel.

Can that be used at all to ID this Sherman and who was operating it in 1967?

David
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  #45  
Old 07-02-21, 22:29
Michael R. Michael R. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Storey View Post
Was the Regular Force still using Shermans in 1967, which is when the photograph was taken.
Great point. Accepting the event is 1967, the Sherman group with painted up turrets and loaded with blank, are they Reserve guys heading out to play silly bugger as OPFOR (was that “Phantasia” (sp) at that time), or Sherman’s that remained available on base and were used for such training ?

Harold Skaarup, Maj. (ret’d) wrote:
“ After the first batch of the new tanks went to the RCD at Camp Borden 1946, another 30 went to the LdSH at Camp Wainwright, Alberta in March 1947. Training on the tanks by the LdSH was also conducted at Camp Sarcee in Alberta, and at Camp Petawawa when the RCD moved there in the spring of 1948.”

Last edited by Michael R.; 07-02-21 at 22:41.
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  #46  
Old 07-02-21, 22:56
Ed Storey Ed Storey is offline
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Default M1919a$ mg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael R. View Post
Great point. Accepting the event is 1967, the Sherman group with painted up turrets and loaded with blank, are they Reserve guys heading out to play silly bugger as OPFOR (was that “Phantasia” (sp) at that time), or Sherman’s that remained available on base and were used for such training ?

Harold Skaarup, Maj. (ret’d) wrote:
“ After the first batch of the new tanks went to the RCD at Camp Borden 1946, another 30 went to the LdSH at Camp Wainwright, Alberta in March 1947. Training on the tanks by the LdSH was also conducted at Camp Sarcee in Alberta, and at Camp Petawawa when the RCD moved there in the spring of 1948.”
I don't have the photograph caption and we can speculate all day as to the date and place; but back to why I posted the image, which was why no MGs mounted in the Shermans?
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  #47  
Old 07-02-21, 23:27
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Dan Martel Dan Martel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Storey View Post
Canadian Army Webbing Patterns were as follows 1908 (Canadian), 1908, 1913, 1925, 1937, 1951, 1964, and 1982 Pattern. 1958 Pattern was British and not adapted by Canada.
You're right Ed. I was referring to the 51 pattern. I guess I spend too much time on British Army sites.
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  #48  
Old 13-02-21, 06:54
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strat1 strat1 is offline
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Default Reg F Sherman

Attached for reference, 1947/48 Camp Wainwright, Alberta. Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) tank park. The Shermans were used until 1952, replaced by the Centurion Mk 5's.
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  #49  
Old 13-02-21, 16:28
maple_leaf_eh maple_leaf_eh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strat1 View Post
Attached for reference, 1947/48 Camp Wainwright, Alberta. Lord Strathcona's Horse (Royal Canadians) tank park. The Shermans were used until 1952, replaced by the Centurion Mk 5's.
And that is an M5 Stuart in the foreground.
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  #50  
Old 10-04-21, 03:04
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Darrell Zinck Darrell Zinck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James P View Post
Weapons on the turret top, C1 SMG and a 1919 that looks fitted with a cone shaped BFA atop a tripod say ex somewhere in Canada.

Hi

I meant to get back to this thread/photo but a recent gun camp reminded me.

I do not think that there is a BFA on the M1919A4 (or the SMG) simply because of the flag on the rear Sherman. That is the Range safety Officer's vehicle that follows any live fire movement on Armoured vehicle ranges. To this day.

To have BFAs on a live fire range................I dunno. Were we that stupid back then?

Fotr the SMG, I also do not think it is a BFA due to the position indicated is too far back on the body of the weapon. Looks like the clip for the sling. I loved my "Small Metal Gun".

http://mpmuseum.org/smgc1.html

regard
Darrell
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Last edited by Darrell Zinck; 10-04-21 at 18:26.
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