RCOC 1 and 2 Detachments, England, 1940

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Here's a poser that is driving me insane! It appears that 1 Detachment RCOC was transferred to 2 Detachment in the Canadian Mechanization Depot, Southampton, August 1940, to work on vehicle assembly lines. 1 Detachment had been involved in assembly line work since March 1940, and I hazard a guess that they were transferred to 2 Detachment when the work was building up for assembly for the 2nd Division that was about to be landed. Then in November 1940 2 Detachment was assigned to the CMD.

Can anyone advise please as to whether the RCOC 1 and 2 Detachments would have been formed from personnel technically not within 1st and 2nd Canadian Infantry Divisions, but as the RCOC were ancillary, they were practically speaking "1st" and "2nd" Division troops?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Following on from my previous posting, it appears that there was a detachment of New Zealand troops in the UK :

"The Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa left Canada on 30 June 1940 and arrived in Iceland on 7 July 1940, where it remained until 27 April 1941.] The brigade moved to Aldershot on arrival. It moved to Surrey on 7 September 1940 and came under command of VII Corps to replace the recently departed New Zealand contingent". Where did they go...to the Mid-East?

I have also seen a photo of Australian troops training in England in 1940. Did these get sent to the Mid-East?

The reason for the interest is because we know that some early BRITISH order #11/#12 Cabs were supplied to Australian forces either via the UK or direct to Alexandria, as well as UK and possibly Indian forces but because they were nominally British they carried Brirish WD Census Numbers. It makes sense that those Antipodean troops that landed in the UK in 1940 in response to Churchill's suggestion of using them in the defence of France [May 1940] were sent on to the Mid-East in late 1940 and were issued with early order British CMPs that would have arrived in Egypt in January 1941.

FOUND AN ANSWER!

".7th Australian Infantry Division was the next formation to be formed in the 2nd AIF. It initially had 20th and 21st Australian Infantry Brigades formed respectively in May and July 1940. Both brigades were sent to the Middle East in October 1940. 19th Brigade was designated to join this division on the division's arrival in the Middle East but left it in November 1940 for 6th Australian Infantry Division. 18th Brigade, as noted above, would later join the division on its arrival in the Middle East from England. But this division also underwent other changes. 20th Brigade was transferred in January 1941 to the newly created 9th Australian Infantry Division, which was formed in the Middle East on 18 December 1940. To take its place, 25th Australian Infantry Brigade was moved from the United Kingdom in March 1941 to complete 7th Division. The 25th Brigade was created in England in June 1940 from extra troops attached to 18th Brigade.". Whether the AIF took with them vehicles from the UK seems doubtful given dates unless they were shipped out with the 25th Brigade. More likely the CMPs were shipped out to Egypt and then issued out there.

[Max Hedges]

David,I could email pages of the book titled TO BENGHAZI on the early history of the war for you to look at if you wish.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

G'day Max, and thanks. I have orderded TO THE THUNDERER HIS ARMS re RCOC but it may take weeks to get here. Anyone got a copy please that refers to 1940 in England?

[Mark W. Tonner]

David;

From the book 'TO THE THUNDERER HIS ARMS, THE ROYAL CANADIAN ORDNANCE CORPS':

No. 1 Det, RCOC - page 88-89:

"The primary function of the first small Canadian Ordnance detachment which was posted to the Field Stores Depot, Aldershot, in late December 1939, was a financial nature. It was required to learn in detail the British system of accounting which would be taken into use by the Canadian formations upon arrival in Great Britain. In addition, an RCOC Control Office was established, to inspect clothing and equipment accounts for Canadian units, to maintain duplicate accounting ledgers for Canadian units, to check on British claims for stores issued to Canadian units on repayment, and to submit claims for Canadian stores issued to the British.

In February 1941, an establishment was approved and the Canadians who had been working at the Aldershot depot on an ad hoc basis were formed into an authorized unit, designated No. 1 Detachment RCOC. By August 1940, a number of former tank hangers at Crookham, Hampshire, were made available and the Canadian Group transferred its stores there. The officer commanding No. 1 Detachment RCOC also held the title of DADOS Canadian troops, Aldershot, and, in this capacity, it was his duty to co-ordinate demands submitted by Canadian unts stationed within Aldershot Command. Late in 1940, No. 1 Detachment began to act more and more as an inspection unit.

The original No. 1 Detachment did, however, acquire three additional functions during 1940. A Boot Repair Shop and shoemaker's school was established in Crookham in the autumn of 1940. An Armourers' Shop was set up at about the same time. This unit moved to Bordon in early 1944 and came under the direction of the RCEME."

No. 2 Det, RCOC - page 91-92:

"The first Canadian vehicles to reach the united Kingdom began to land during March and April of 1940. When these arrived in a 'semi-knocked-down" condition (crated, their wheels removed) at the Government siding of the Field Stores Depot in Aldershot, an RCOC officer and six other ranks from the Canadian Liaison Office at Field Stores, Aldershot, were made responsible for assembling and for driving them to a temporary Canadian depot at Woking.

About a hundred vehicles, all staff cars, were landed in the United Kingdom during March and April of 1940. With the arrival of larger quantities and heavier types of Canadian mechanical transport, it became necessary to establish a separate Canadian depot to handle them. A new RAOC building, adjacent to Martinique Barracks in Bordon, was taken over by the Canadians. To begin with, the RCOC MT Depot had an establishment of only a dozen all ranks but it increased greatly as its responsibilities grew. An establishment was authorized for the unit which had formerly been operating on an ad hoc basis and the Vehicle Depot was entitled No. 2 Detachment, RCOC."

Hope this helps.

Cheers

[Mark W. Tonner]

David;

Again, from the book 'TO THE THUNDERER HIS ARMS, THE ROYAL CANADIAN ORDNANCE CORPS':

page 337 - Appendix C - Royal Canadian Ordnance Corps Order of Battle 1939 - 1946

1 Detachment RCOC, Aldershot:

- Cdn Liaison Office - Field Stores - Dec 39
- Cdn Control Office - Field Stores - Jan 40
- Cdn Stores Group - Aldershot - Jan 40 - to Crookham Aug 40
- 2 Army Fd Workshop RCOC Bordon - arrived UK Dec 39 - to 2 Det May 40
- Base Laundry (civilian) - Bordon - Jan 40 - to 2 Det May 40
- Armourer's Shop - Crookham - Jan 40 - to RCEME Feb 44
- RCOC Holding Unit - Bordon - Feb 40
- Veh Inspection Org - Southampton Feb 40 - to Bordon Aug 40
- Veh Assembly Sec - Aldershot - Mar 40
- Veh Assembly Org - Southampton - Mar 40
- Cdn (Temp) Veh Depot - Woking - Mar 40 - closed May 40
- Veh Census Branch - Bordon - Mar 40
- RCOC MT Depot - Bordon - Apr 40 - to 2 Det May 40
- Boot Repair Shop - Crookham - May 40
- Cdn Ord Inspections Sec - Aldershot - May 40 - absd by Inspec Unit
- Returned Stores Sub-Depot - Crookham - Sep 40
- Cdn Ord Inspections Unit - Aldershot - Nov 40 - absd Inspectorate

2 Detachment RCOC, Bordon:

- 2 Army Fd Workshop RCOC - Bordon - May 40 - from 1 Det
- Base Laundry - Bordon - May 40 - from 1 Det
- RCOC Holding Unit - Bordon - May 40 - from 1 Det
- Veh Census Branch - Bordon - May 40 - from 1 Det
- RCOC MT Depot - Bordon - May 40 - from 1 Det
- Veh Inspectorate RCOC - Aug 40
- Veh Assembly Sec - Aldershot - Aug 40 - from 1 Det
- Veh Assembly Org - Southampton - Aug 40 - from 1 Det
- Veh Assembly Line - Dagenham - Aug 40
- Veh Assembly Line - Slough - Aug 40
- Ordnance Base Workshop - Bordon - Aug 40 - absd by RCEME Feb 44
- Spare Parts Stores Sec - Bordon - Aug 40 - absd by BOD Jul 42
- Cdn Mechanization Depot - Southampton - Nov 40 - bombed Nov 40

Cheers

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Mark, I am indebted. Do you take it that No 1 Detachment handed over to No 2 Detachment [when it says "from 1 Det"]? I thought that it meant that personnel were transferred from 1 Detachment to 2 Detachment presumably as more men landed and therefore "from 1 Det" meant "men transferred from 1 Det". Now I wonder if it meant that certain sections BECAME 2 Detachment. The result would be the same as the men formerly with 1 Det would have transferred with the formal unit change.

So far as I know the 100 Staff Cars were all Fords...I have a photo of one or at least the front end of it. Numerous Chevrolet '40 four door sedans were burnt out when the Southampton Plant was bombed but some must have been delivered previously albeit after the Ford fordor sedans.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
Mark, I am indebted. Do you take it that No 1 Detachment handed over to No 2 Detachment [when it says "from 1 Det"]? I thought that it meant that personnel were transferred from 1 Detachment to 2 Detachment presumably as more men landed and therefore "from 1 Det" meant "men transferred from 1 Det". Now I wonder if it meant that certain sections BECAME 2 Detachment. The result would be the same as the men formerly with 1 Det would have transferred with the formal unit change.

David;

Example: 2 Army Fd Workshop RCOC passed from under command & control of No. 1 Det RCOC to under command & control of No. 2 Det RCOC in May 1940

Same for the Base Laundry, RCOC Holding Unit, Veh Census Branch and RCOC MT Depot - all in May 1940

Same for Veh Assembly Sec and Veh Assembly Org, but in Aug 1940

Also David, to answer your earlier question: "Can anyone advise please as to whether the RCOC 1 and 2 Detachments would have been formed from personnel technically not within 1st and 2nd Canadian Infantry Divisions, but as the RCOC were ancillary, they were practically speaking "1st" and "2nd" Division troops?" the personnel for No. 1 and No. 2 Detachments RCOC were originally staffed from the trickle of RCOC reinforcements arriving in the UK at the time of their establishments.

Cheers

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Does anyone have TO THE THUNDERER HIS ARMS please? I cannot locate my copy which is probably at my parents' home. Is there a reference in there to the 1. Det or 2 Det. RCOC rescue of military vehicles during the night of 30th Novermber 1940? From memory an officer and men drove down from Bordon and then whilst bombs were falling, managed to save a number of vehicles in the yard outside.

Accordingto Mr Law's notes, Captain R. S. Rekert and personel from 2. Det RCOC [Bordon] proceeded to the CMD in Southampton and savaged vehicles from the burning plant whislt the bombs were falling.

Rekert had been appointed office i/c at No. 2 Det, Bordon 1st October, and 1 Det. had been put under 2 Det. So, the officer personally organised the rescue of how..how many? vehicles.