Books photos about executed POWS June 1944

[DaveCox]

Hi Carman,

It could be that the symbolism of 'the greenwood tree' is a memory that was taken from Britain by emigrants. In many old English villages the centre of the village life was the 'green', a patch of open grass. Usually you would find a large tree in or near the centre of these 'greens', and this was where villagers would meet and discuss their grievances, hold 'councils' etc; and it therefore became the symbol of freedom.

I'm really, honstly, no joking, glad that you've found this picture. Finding your 'roots' was one of the things that drove you to move back east I guess and I know that it meant a lot to you.

Originally posted by DaveCox
Hi Carman,

It could be that the symbolism of 'the greenwood tree' is a memory that was taken from Britain by emigrants. In many old English villages the centre of the village life was the 'green', a patch of open grass. Usually you would find a large tree in or near the centre of these 'greens', and this was where villagers would meet and discuss their grievances, hold 'councils' etc; and it therefore became the symbol of freedom.

I'm really, honstly, no joking, glad that you've found this picture. Finding your 'roots' was one of the things that drove you to move back east I guess and I know that it meant a lot to you.

I love your explanation about the tree being a symbol of freedom. Freedom was the whole point for being there (WW2) hey? The photo, finding it, has a lot of different "reasons" for me ... many reasons born of an obsession that lead me to more questions ... and knowledge. Education. I simply wanted to know what happned to the beautiful faced young man, the Uncle, brother, son, etc, whose picture/face I fell in love with as a very young child somehow. Something about his face ... and probably about the deep emotions/feelings, sadness and mystery I felt in Mom and others when they talked (rarely)of Uncle Eddie. I'm sure any of you who have lost relatives to war know the moods and energies, the expressions, the weight of the unsaid things, the disbelief, the "WHY" that hangs in the air, the faraway looks in the eyes, the anger, the unsaid goodbyes, regrets, PRIDE PRIDE PRIDE for sacrifices paid.... kids are very tuned in emotionally ... it gets inside and stays I guess.

Home again ... delving for roots ... is a part of why I'm here again, a large part, but not the only one. Connecting with family again is one. Another is laying to rest old ghosts, and finding out if other old ghosts are laid to rest. I'm glad to say that on Sunday, for the first time in my life, I was able to visit a place that I couldn't handle before because of "some history"... well, the good news is is that I found out, as I stood and walkd there again, I'm free at last of some old ghosts.

There is nothing more wonderful than certain kinds freedoms ... and nothing more necessary for us human things

About my Uncle ... yes, some is about prsonal history, but because he went off to war and freedom fighting for Canada... his history belongs to him and to Canada, not just this family.

Thats the way I see things anyways ... and why I do this "caring and sharing" thing.

"Karmen"

Hi.

Can anyone answer any of this for me?
2 Queries:

1) June 6, 1944, about to take the Beaches of Normandy. WHAT was my "RIFLEMAN" Uncle wearing and lugging around with him?

2) "RIFLEMAN" Edward Smith .... I've assumed the "RIFLEMAN" part referred to my Uncle CARRYING a RIFLE ... am I wrong about what a RIFLEMAN is/was
and what SORT of RIFLE ?

(I know my ignorance really shows. I really don't know though)

Thanks,

Carman

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Karmen,

They were different from the rank 'n file in that their job was simply ASSAULT. I can't speak for every individual man, but the section would have been loaded out with standard Canadian battledress, a Mk.II or Mk.III helmet with camouflage net, full web gear including belt, cross-straps, ammunition pouches (two per man), canteen, bayonet, and entrenching tool, and gaiters. He will in addition have been carrying a bandolier of 50 rounds of .303 British ammunition (for his Lee Enfield No.4 Mk.I rifle) around his neck, and another in one of his ammo pouches. The latter is in addition to a couple of Mk.36 hand grenades.

The other ammo pouch will have contained two loaded Bren magazines (28 rounds per mag) for the Section Bren LMG.

He will most certainly have had his small pack, containing various items including a variety of spare clothing and personal items, his mess kit, gas cape and so on.

He will also most likely have been wearing a small life vest, fastened around the waist.

The rest of his kit, and that normally supplied by the regiment in the field, will have followed up as the rear echelons were able to land and establish battalion headquarters.

The assault troops travelled light, and expected 50% casualties. That wasn't far from what actually took place.

We have all of the original kit here... one day you'll get a chance to see it.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by V_D
Hi.

Can anyone answer any of this for me?
2 Queries:

1) June 6, 1944, about to take the Beaches of Normandy. WHAT was my "RIFLEMAN" Uncle wearing and lugging around with him?

2) "RIFLEMAN" Edward Smith .... I've assumed the "RIFLEMAN" part referred to my Uncle CARRYING a RIFLE ... am I wrong about what a RIFLEMAN is/was
and what SORT of RIFLE ?

(I know my ignorance really shows. I really don't know though)

Thanks,

Carman

Carman;

2) - RIFLEMAN was your Uncle's rank - in Rifle Regiments, Privates are referred to as Rifleman.

1) - regarding what he was 'wearing and lugging around' - somewhere along the way, I posted a picture of a Landing Craft of the "Rifles" on the run in to the beaches (I'll post another picture in a few minutes).

- he would have been carrying a Lee Enfield .303 Rifle.

Picture to follow shortly.

Cheers

Originally posted by Geoff Winnington-Ball
Karmen,

They were different from the rank 'n file in that their job was simply ASSAULT. I can't speak for every individual man, but the section would have been loaded out with standard Canadian battledress, a Mk.II or Mk.III helmet with camouflage net, full web gear including belt, cross-straps, ammunition pouches (two per man), canteen, bayonet, and entrenching tool, and gaiters. He will in addition have been carrying a bandolier of 50 rounds of .303 British ammunition (for his Lee Enfield No.4 Mk.I rifle) around his neck, and another in one of his ammo pouches. The latter is in addition to a couple of Mk.36 hand grenades.

The other ammo pouch will have contained two loaded Bren magazines (28 rounds per mag) for the Section Bren LMG.

He will most certainly have had his small pack, containing various items including a variety of spare clothing and personal items, his mess kit, gas cape and so on.

He will also most likely have been wearing a small life vest, fastened around the waist.

The rest of his kit, and that normally supplied by the regiment in the field, will have followed up as the rear echelons were able to land and establish battalion headquarters.

The assault troops travelled light, and expected 50% casualties. That wasn't far from what actually took place.

We have all of the original kit here... one day you'll get a chance to see it.

WOW... thank you SO much Geoff! You've answered much of what I've always been wondering about, along these lines. I hope I DO get to see the original kit soon (end of June you all say? ...send a car for me!)

ONE DAY SOON I hope to bable to print this whole thread out, from beginning to end. Soon as I have a printer with enough paper and ink cartridge set up again. It would be SO much easier to read the hard copy then trying to load the pages, which often won't with my old setup.

There is SO much info in this thread about so many things that others might beinterested inknowing. For THAT I'mglad I started this thread!

Don't ever lose it G

Karmen

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Carman;

2) - RIFLEMAN was your Uncle's rank - in Rifle Regiments, Privates are referred to as Rifleman.

1) - regarding what he was 'wearing and lugging around' - somewhere along the way, I posted a picture of a Landing Craft of the "Rifles" on the run in to the beaches (I'll post another picture in a few minutes).

- he would have been carrying a Lee Enfield .303 Rifle.

Picture to follow shortly.

Cheers

Thank You Mark. I think I remember the picture you posted. The thing is I may be "seeing stuff" but not comprehend what it is I'm seeing, or whats tucked/hidden away under/on belts, bags, clothes, vests etc. Geoff answered alot of my "whats he lugging around" questions.

You know, soon I'll start seeing and smelling and hearing and tasting, feeling, all that those soldiers were ... it all comes to life so vividly with the details you people provide.

Thanks.

Carman

Originally posted by DaveCox
Hi Carman

I'm really, honstly, no joking, glad that you've found this picture. Finding your 'roots' was one of the things that drove you to move back east I guess and I know that it meant a lot to you.

PS to my reply to your post Dave: Yesssss... finding my roots was part of the attraction to move back ... Manitoba is a focal point of much for me right now, at this stage of life, and I really wanted to be here to get at "history stuff" and just finish up some old personal biz.

This move fits in perfectly with researching my Uncle and other relatives who served. If I can learn something about them and pass on the information and stories to relatives and interested others, then I've done my bit to keep the FLAME LIT to honour the memories, lives and sacrifices of these men and women of my family. I'm proud of them all, as I should be.

And an aside, I'm proud of myself that this time I didn't passout or have nightmares when standing on an old haunted place for me. Cool. Perhaps I would have accomplishd this feat sooner had I not left the area since 1965. ? eeek

Now ... back to "what were they lugging around" and on with this thread...

I was about to get some sleep quite awhile ago, but decided to check my email. I found yet another email from someone searching about THEIR Uncle ... yes, the Uncle was with mine that day too.

I'm telling you all because he wrote me requesting information I might have, and because you guys have been such wonderful "teachers" ... especially you Mr. Mark Tonner with the whizzing inundating information to me EEEK ... well, I have a lot of info this man wants that I can give him.

Feels good to be able to help someone with this, doesn't it? I know how meaningful and emotional this has been for me as FAMILY to my Uncle ... its the same for others families.

There really SHOULD be a website for these particular Canadian Soldiers families to connect and pool information How to?

GEOFF ... I can't believe where you'll be in June. Can this really be true? Incredible.

Thanks everyone ... what comes round... goes round.

Carman

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by V_D
I was about to get some sleep quite awhile ago, but decided to check my email. I found yet another email from someone searching about THEIR Uncle ... yes, the Uncle was with mine that day too.

Carman;

What is the Uncle's name?

Cheers

Thank you Mark ... after much crashing, scandisk and defrag ... finally was able to
open and load those emails to view... I'll pass
the images/links along.

As ever, Carman

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by V_D
Thank you Mark ... after much crashing, scandisk and defrag ... finally was able to
open and load those emails to view... I'll pass
the images/links along.

As ever, Carman

Did you receive all three (1x Picture and 2x Links) ? ......p.s. - the Bill is in the mail .......

Cheers

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Did you receive all three (1x Picture and 2x Links) ? ......p.s. - the Bill is in the mail .......

Cheers

Yes. I received all 3.

You are officially on my "indebted to" list ... which grows steadily, believe me ...

I don't whine much about my old beasty computer set-up, I can't replace it, and look what it's don for me "as is" even. Incredible.

BTW Mark ...

Thanks.

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by V_D
Yes. I received all 3.

You are officially on my "indebted to" list ... which grows steadily, believe me ...

I don't whine much about my old beasty computer set-up, I can't replace it, and look what it's don for me "as is" even. Incredible.

BTW Mark ...

Thanks.

Your Welcome

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
Your Welcome

You just LOVE to make my head spin don't you Mark!

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by V_D
You just LOVE to make my head spin don't you Mark!

The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round..................

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round..................

I notice that your bus has already wheeled ROUND AND ROUND THE BEND!?



Yippy

[Mark W. Tonner]

Originally posted by V_D
I notice that your bus has already wheeled ROUND AND ROUND THE BEND!?



Yippy

I'm around the bend am I......hmmm... ....but the wheels are square, so it took me awhile to get there...... oh well........

Originally posted by Mark W. Tonner
I'm around the bend am I......hmmm... ....but the wheels are square, so it took me awhile to get there...... oh well........

Good one Mark!

Well Mark ... the wheels on MY bus must have been nice and round, because I made it round the bend long bfore you did

Now ... SERIOUS stuff:

I just tried to post a photo of Beny Sur Mer that someone sent me months ago ...its too large! I received the photo along with the one of my Uncle's headstone.

Carman

[Mark W. Tonner]

Posted on behalf of Carman Sinclair:

BENY-SUR-MER CANADIAN WAR CEMETERY

I can just imagine myself walking through the cemetery, reading the names ... feeling the silence ... and the history. What a sacred place. As they all are. I wandered through our little cemetery back home a while back, different thing I know, but I always get a profound feeling of lives lived and history made.

God... I envy you G ... in a couple of weeks or so you'll be there. If you see my Uncles brother-in-laws headstone ... and you have another flag ??? (Private PHILIP GENAILLE) I'll send you the location if you request it. Philip has been on my mind a lot too ...

Mark ... thank you for posting this. It's nice to have it in this thread. A little blurb I recived with the photo said that there are 2048 (?) Canadian Soldiers buried there ... ONE Soldier's grave isthere, but can't be located ... ??? ... I don't know the story behind "why not" or "who"...

Take care.

Carman

Originally posted by V_D

God... I envy you G ... in a couple of weeks or so you'll be there. If you see my Uncles brother-in-laws headstone ... and you have another flag ??? (Private PHILIP GENAILLE) I'll send you the location if you request it. Philip has been on my mind a lot too ...

Just make sure Geoff has the particulars and I'll post the photos of us at the actual spot.

R.

Originally posted by FV623
Just make sure Geoff has the particulars and I'll post the photos of us at the actual spot.

R.

It's already been done R. I can hardly wait to see the photos of this visit in particular.

Just incredible. That's all I have to say to all of you, and this whole experience.

Thank you R.
G. ... ditto and a whole lot more.

"Karmen"

Well ... I'm astounded and a little overwhelmed at the moment.

I had my first real visit to the Royal Winnipeg Rifles Museum this evening, and met Don Zorniak, and others. One man will be at the 60th Anniversay Ceremonies too.

Don gave me a tour of the Museum room, which was amazing, but far too much for me to take in in one visit, in an hour. I'll be going back again and again to "really have a look and read the displays, and do a lot more "touchy feely" than I did this evening, uniforms, weapons, artifacts ...
when we got to the WW2 displays I was just suddenly overcome with emotion and couldn't talk. That stayed with me quite awhile. I have to go back because everything after that was a blur.

We went back to the Library and Archives room ... and chatted about all sorts of things, and shared a birthday cake for Don.

They were very welcoming and wonderful to me. I was presented with 2 badges (?) the ones that say ROYAL WINNIPEG RIFLES CANADA and are sewn on the shoulders of the uniforms. (there is a post in this thread somewhere, by Mark, showing these badges)I also received a "modern" cap badge.

I'm welcomed and invited back, and will be taking my Uncles service records with me and Don and others will go over them with me.

What an evening. I've been communicating with Don Zorniak by email and phone for over a year and this evening was our first meeting. Its SO good to meet the people who have helped me ... so much ... I hope I get the honour of meeting you all soon too.

The men I metwere quite wonderful and am looking forward to more convrsations and learning from them.

Wow.

Carman

[Geoff Winnington-Ball (RIP)]

Nay, for all of us. Thank you for your words.

The following is going on your uncle's grave, together with a Red Ensign:

Emotional.

You're doing something special for Edward... and his family. There really are no words Geoff ... just a lot of very awe-some and wonderful "felt-thought" ... and a genuine warmth straight from my heart and soul, for you.

Karmen

[Mark W. Tonner]

Hi Carman;

Thought you might want to see this photo I found, it is of troops of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles on 1 June 1944 in their embarkation camp awaiting the order forward to load onto invasion shipping.

Who know's, your Uncle Eddie or my Father, or even Sean's Uncle could be in this photo.

Also, what Geoff had posted in reply to your question of what they would have been wearing on D-Day:

"They were different from the rank 'n file in that their job was simply ASSAULT. I can't speak for every individual man, but the section would have been loaded out with standard Canadian battledress, a Mk.II or Mk.III helmet with camouflage net, full web gear including belt, cross-straps, ammunition pouches (two per man), canteen, bayonet, and entrenching tool, and gaiters. He will in addition have been carrying a bandolier of 50 rounds of .303 British ammunition (for his Lee Enfield No.4 Mk.I rifle) around his neck, and another in one of his ammo pouches. The latter is in addition to a couple of Mk.36 hand grenades.

The other ammo pouch will have contained two loaded Bren magazines (28 rounds per mag) for the Section Bren LMG.

He will most certainly have had his small pack, containing various items including a variety of spare clothing and personal items, his mess kit, gas cape and so on", if you look in the foreground centre of the photo, you can see one of the soldier's webbing and his Mk III helmet and small pack, piled on his right side.

The reference number for this photo is NAC PA 132473.

Cheers

Just think of the confidances shared in those "rest moments" Having a smoke. Reading a letter from home perhaps. Writing one. I like to imagine the two men,the guy sitting looks like he could be native. My uncle through marriage, Philip Genaille, was very native looking. And the guy laying down looking up and back could be Uncle Eddie. Having a conversation.

With the experiences of war, going through it all together, from training, through combat ... I imagine the powerful "forever deep" bonds they would have developed. To lose one of theirs , I imagine, must be an incredible loss.

Incredible.

Thanks Mark ... keep posting these great photos you find.

Carman

[Mark W. Tonner]

Carman;

Troops from either "A" or "C" Companies, Royal Winnipeg Rifles embarking on the L.S.I. (Landing Ship Infantry) H.M.S. Llangby Castle, at Southampton - 2 June 1944.

Cheers