Wanted: WS19 No3 control unit

[Russell Boaler]

I'm in need of a British No.3 (Mk2 or similar) WS19 control unit that's in good condition paint wise. Any assistance would be appreciated.

Russell

[Patrick Johnson]

Hi Russell,
Are you looking specifically for British manufacture, or would a US manufactured No. 3 control unit suit your purpose? I have at least one No. 3 available but postage to New Zealand might be pretty steep. Let me know!
Cheers, Patrick

[Russell Boaler]

Thanks Patrick.

It's to go in a British armoured car and I mainly want to avoid one with Russian text. Excuse my ignorance but I'm not sure what the differences are between the American and British versions. Here in NZ the sets with Russian text are generally known as "Canadian sets". It will sit in close proximity to the attached remote control unit so ideally something that has a similar finish.

Indeed, the units aren't light so postage from anywhere won't be cheap but that's life I guess.

Russell

[lssah2025]

That is a junction remote control number 1 in your picture, ebay has lots of Number 3 MK II on them from time to time. So you want the British version, gray with black lettering, the lend lease are usually a little different color, will look out for you.

Most of the ones with Cyrillic are lend lease models, that went to Canada, UK, Australia etc., just depends if/what you want your radio to be, all matching or piece meal. Here is a Number 3 MK II so others can know what it looks like.

Is this for the DAC? or another one, most of the Number 3 MK II were in Dingos.

[Russell Boaler]

That is indeed a picture of exactly the No.3 control box that I'm after.

It is to go in a Daimler Armoured Car as you suggested. Attached is a picture of the general WS19 radio arrangement in the back of the turret. I do have an old control box as shown in the picture and it has long since lost all its labels and is starting to suffer from some corrosion... hence the desire to locate one in better condition.

As this is a late production Mk2 DAC it has it has an external cable drum fitted which is wired back to the WS19 set via the Junction-remote control box shown in my earlier post. Most DAC's didn't have the remote control box fitted. I'm currently struggling to figure out the mounting position of the remote control box as there is simply no room for it beside variometer (it's physically the same size as the No3 control box).

Russell

[Patrick Johnson]

Hi Russell,
The No.3 Control Units I have all have the English and Russian cyrillic letters on them, I believe these were largely made in the US by RCA for Lend Lease. As far as I know these boxes were made in the US as you rarely find them with some form of US manufacturers marks. The truly British made sets were made if I'm correct by Pye and are very distinct in their colour and markings. I wish you good luck in finding what you are looking for and keep checking ebay.co.uk for new listings.
Cheers,
Patrick

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Your 19 set with the black text on white decals looks to be early Canadian or American made. Does the data plate on the front confirm this? British sets should have the face text in black right over the pale blue/grey face paint.

As for the mounting of the control unit. Are there blocks on the underside of the turret roof just forward of the set? Sometimes the units were bolted to the turret ceiling.

Originally Posted by Russell Boaler

That is indeed a picture of exactly the No.3 control box that I'm after.

It is to go in a Daimler Armoured Car as you suggested. Attached is a picture of the general WS19 radio arrangement in the back of the turret. I do have an old control box as shown in the picture and it has long since lost all its labels and is starting to suffer from some corrosion... hence the desire to locate one in better condition.

As this is a late production Mk2 DAC it has it has an external cable drum fitted which is wired back to the WS19 set via the Junction-remote control box shown in my earlier post. Most DAC's didn't have the remote control box fitted. I'm currently struggling to figure out the mounting position of the remote control box as there is simply no room for it beside variometer (it's physically the same size as the No3 control box).

Russell

[Russell Boaler]

Thanks Bruce. Attached is a picture of the ID plate on the WS19 that I'm going to use. I'm no expert in WS19's (would barely even qualify as a novice I suspect) so am not sure if you can deduce the country of manufacture from it.

Here in NZ most of our defense force equipment used in WW2 was sourced from our Commonwealth friends an beyond. I've seen a variety of different WS19 sets (Mk's, colours etc) so presumably we took whatever we could get whenever we could get it. This isn't the original radio, that was gone well before I purchased the DAC, but a Mk2 WS19 is the correct radio for a Mk2 DAC.

There are no other fixing points on the turret for securing of the radio equipment. I suspect/believe that the remote control unit was mounted on a plate that was secured to the turret using the bolts associated with the radio armoured wiring outlet. I'm starting to think that the Variometer may have been re-positioned slightly on the later DAC's to create a bit of space....

[Chris Suslowicz]

Ooh! Aeronautical & General Instrument Company Ltd.

It's British (and the company is still operating, mostly as a Defence contractor, I think). They also made photographic equipment: Agiflex and Agifold cameras, Agiphot enlarger, etc.

Unless you use an extension cable on the droplead, I think you are going to have severe difficulty in mounting the control unit and Junction Remote Control close enough together - although the control unit was mounted flat on top of the set in the Daimler Dingo, so if there is room you might get both of them on there. The other problem is: where does the remote cable reel mount? If it's on the turret then you need a feed through the rotary base junction (if fitted), or to connect the JRC to a droplead when required for use - it also needs a 12V supply for the relay to work, and I think the green light may have to be visible to the wireless operator when in use.

Best regards,
Chris.

[Chris Suslowicz]

Second thoughts: it's a 'bitzer' and the ID plate is not original. Looking at the (mismatched) knobs (a mixture of UK and US types), the American key jack and acceptance stamp in the watch holder, it's probably an early Philco Mk.II set with an A.G.I. nameplate added.

Is there enough clearance to put the control unit on top of the set? That's the usual Daimler install - with the lampholder facing forwards so the operator can see it. If so, you need a mounting plate on top of the set that fits to four of the three hole sets on the case and is drilled for nuts & bolts to mount the control unit.

I'd also query the variometer position: on the Daimler scout car it was on the right hand side with aerial feeder No.4 through the hull, but in the armoured car it may be on the left (looking from the front) with the aerial bases on external brackets on the turret. (There was a D.A.C. in the IWM (London) a few years ago, but the only things I remember about it were that it had been moved into position under a balcony and the aerial rod had destroyed the base as a result, plus the 'B' set aerial base was a horrible mock-up made of conduit fittings and tinplate (about half the size of the genuine item).

Chris (possibly in rivet-counter mode at the time).

[Russell Boaler]

You're right Chris, the Remote control unit plugs into one of the leads of the leads of the control unit so the two do need to be close together. Alas there's barely enough room for the A and B side aerial cabling above the radio let alone something big and bulky like a remote control unit. The cable reel is mounted on the outside rear of the turret and has a rotary junction built into the inside of the reel (I posted a couple of photos of it on the wireless forum last year). It's unfortunate that I don't have any specific mounting details for the wireless to copy... I'll just have to dream something up that's reasonable.

Re the radio, the last time I looked at this radio must have been close to 20 years ago. I've just recently pulled it out of storage and mounted it in the back of the turret. I'd be surprised if the data plate had been taken from a different radio and put on this one. That said I think it was me who fitted the watch holder way back when I got it as the original was broken. It is also possible that some of the knobs may have been swapped out at some point (although I don't recall actually doing it myself). I'll make contact with you separately to find out which bits are wrong on the radio... I may have another donor British set somewhere that I could pirate some bits off... to improve its appearance for the rivet counters....

[Tim Bell]

I have one of these somewhere... don't recall what the markings are... I will see if I can find it.

I bought it to cut up and turn into a Control Unit No12 for my Sherman - as this is the closest I could find to the one I need.

I am therefore in the market for the Control Unit No 12.

Tim

[Russell Boaler]

Alas Don't have a No12 control unit Tim. The closest I have is a No16 unit as per the attached picture.

Also attached for reference is a picture of a couple of remote control junction boxes. They connect to the remote control box inside the turret via the two wire terminals on the end (and the wiring held on the external cable drum of course). Presumably these were kept in a signals satchel along with a headset for use when someone left the vehicle.

[Chris Suslowicz]

I have a sneaking suspicion we should move this thread into either the Wireless or the Armour forum.

The original A.C. Daimler used a Control Unit No.1 and Junction Distribution No.1 (for the driver intercom), I think. (Though that was for the WS 19 Mk.1.)

The Junction Remote Control _has_ to be fitted to the turret in order to connect to the external cable reel, and it must be within a foot or so of the other control unit, so I suspect they both go on the underside of the turret roof, the JRC plugs in to the operator's droplead (on the bottom box with two switches), and the operator connects to that. That leaves one or two dropleads free for commander and gunner, and the driver can have a Junction Distribution No.1 or No.3 for his intercom down in the hull - fed via the rotary base junction. (How large is the crew anyway?)

Sigh... having just watched all the clips I can find on Youtube, I don't think you can fit the control units to the turret roof because it opens! Nobody seems to bother to cover the radio fit. Turret sides, maybe? Are there any mounting plates or signs where they were removed?

Chris.

[Chris Suslowicz]

Still doesn't show the main control units, but worth a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSyblVR5NmQ

The "haversacks" are Satchel Signals No.1 with headsets, etc., it shows where the spare valve and spare parts cases are stored and the location of the Driver's Intercom box.

The advantages of current training films!

Chris.

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Yes, an amazing early British set from a very hard to find maker. Well done!!

QUOTE=Chris Suslowicz;268857]Ooh! Aeronautical & General Instrument Company Ltd.

It's British (and the company is still operating, mostly as a Defence contractor, I think). They also made photographic equipment: Agiflex and Agifold cameras, Agiphot enlarger, etc.

Unless you use an extension cable on the droplead, I think you are going to have severe difficulty in mounting the control unit and Junction Remote Control close enough together - although the control unit was mounted flat on top of the set in the Daimler Dingo, so if there is room you might get both of them on there. The other problem is: where does the remote cable reel mount? If it's on the turret then you need a feed through the rotary base junction (if fitted), or to connect the JRC to a droplead when required for use - it also needs a 12V supply for the relay to work, and I think the green light may have to be visible to the wireless operator when in use.

Best regards,
Chris.[/QUOTE]

[Russell Boaler]

Thanks Chris and Bruce.

I've done a lot of measuring of the space that's left in the turret and I just don't think there's enough space available for the remote control unit next to the control unit. May have to ponder that one a bit more.

Chris - the driver is indeed provided with a No1 distribution box (as per the
attached picture) and is connected via the vehicle wiring system. The DAC has a crew of three so the commander and gunner are serviced by the control box in the turret.

Looking at the wiring diagram I assume that the connections for the distribution box come from the 6 pin plug on the power supply unit. I'm guessing then that I need a special power cable for this, one that has both a 12V power supply wires (+ & -) plus speech and signal wires. Add that to the "I need" list I guess.

Russell

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

The driver's box is interesting. It's labelled 'CALL COMMANDER' and has a push button. If the 19 set is set to intercom the driver can hear and speak to the crew through his headset. If the 19 set is set to 'A' (long range) or 'B' (short range he is of of the loop. He must press the button on his control unit which activates a buzzer in the headset of the crew talking on the A or B sets and they must switch back to intercom to hear him.

[Neil Ashley]

You will need a different power cable with additional wires in side.

On my Humber AC I wired in the power mic box used on he tanks so you can still talk even if the radios fail. Obviously the driver needs a carbon mic powered by the transformer in the Number One Distribution Box.

[Chris Suslowicz]

Originally Posted by Bruce Parker

The driver's box is interesting. It's labelled 'CALL COMMANDER' and has a push button. If the 19 set is set to intercom the driver can hear and speak to the crew through his headset. If the 19 set is set to 'A' (long range) or 'B' (short range he is of of the loop. He must press the button on his control unit which activates a buzzer in the headset of the crew talking on the A or B sets and they must switch back to intercom to hear him.

Pin 5 (Signal) on the supply unit input connector is passed through to pin 9 on the control harness. This is connected to the headset (pin 2) on the "Commander's" droplead - though if that lead is switched to the IC position the buzzer will be heard by anyone else switched to IC.

The various control units are wired in different ways, some boxes (1A) have both dropleads in parallel - the No.1 had one switched (for the commander (or operator if that was the only control unit)) and the other marked as "I/C ONLY" for the gunner.

Chris.