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  #181  
Old 13-07-19, 09:27
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Good Heavens, Bruce! One could go broke finding satchels.

Do any of the 11-Set publications explain the surplus requirement? There is nothing at all in the 52-Set tomes covering the addition of just one. It crossed my mind the second satchel might be a carry over from the earlier 9-Sets but I have none of that family of manuals to cross reference for confirmation/explanation.

David
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  #182  
Old 13-07-19, 12:14
Bruce MacMillan Bruce MacMillan is offline
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The kit for the ground station had 7 satchels whereas the kit for a general purpose vehicle had 8. AFV's were only issued 1. There were lots of bits and bobs and multiple headsets and mics so that could account for the number.
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  #183  
Old 13-07-19, 23:35
Chris Suslowicz Chris Suslowicz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dunlop View Post
Good Heavens, Bruce! One could go broke finding satchels.

Do any of the 11-Set publications explain the surplus requirement? There is nothing at all in the 52-Set tomes covering the addition of just one. It crossed my mind the second satchel might be a carry over from the earlier 9-Sets but I have none of that family of manuals to cross reference for confirmation/explanation.

David
The WS19 "set and standard kit" contains at least one satchel (I think), and the installation kit for the Pershing had extras, presumably to hold the extra headsets and possibly the headset extension cables, though the latter were really too large (20 yards?) to fit.

The original "Satchel, Signals" was intended to replace the leather "Bags, Telephone Receiver" and "Cases, Message Book, Mark IV" as I recall, so having extra headsets would be a good reason for adding satchels to keep them tidily out of the way and stop them getting dirty or tangled up.

(If anyone has an original "Bags, Telephone Receiver", or the message book case, in good condition I'd be interested in it for the hoard/collection.)

Chris.
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  #184  
Old 25-08-19, 00:38
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Chris. If itís military, its not hoarding. Itís Patriotic Preservation.

Out of curiosity, I took my two Main Set Headgear, No. 3 Microphone and No. 9 Morse Key and they all stuffed easily into one Satchels, Signal.

The two headsets and cable bits for the Remote Receiver all stow in the wooden Remote Receiver Case which would travel with the Remote Receiver when deployed, so for the typical Ground Installation, all expected needs would be covered with the one satchel. I can see individual operating teams mooching an additional Ďad hocí satchel in the field. Particularly for the Remote Receiver. Grunting the largest, full, wooden support box any distance, would be harder than leaving the case with the main set, and grabbing a spare satchel of accessories and the Remote Supply alone. That said, I am still scratching my head a bit over this one.

The only vehicle install I have run across for the 52-Set is for the C15TA. Must reread it to see if a second Satchel, Signals shows up in it.

In the meantime, good luck with your PP, Chris.

David
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  #185  
Old 25-08-19, 01:56
Chris Suslowicz Chris Suslowicz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dunlop View Post
Chris. If itís military, its not hoarding. Itís Patriotic Preservation.

Out of curiosity, I took my two Main Set Headgear, No. 3 Microphone and No. 9 Morse Key and they all stuffed easily into one Satchels, Signal.

The two headsets and cable bits for the Remote Receiver all stow in the wooden Remote Receiver Case which would travel with the Remote Receiver when deployed, so for the typical Ground Installation, all expected needs would be covered with the one satchel. I can see individual operating teams mooching an additional Ďad hocí satchel in the field. Particularly for the Remote Receiver. Grunting the largest, full, wooden support box any distance, would be harder than leaving the case with the main set, and grabbing a spare satchel of accessories and the Remote Supply alone. That said, I am still scratching my head a bit over this one.

The only vehicle install I have run across for the 52-Set is for the C15TA. Must reread it to see if a second Satchel, Signals shows up in it.

In the meantime, good luck with your PP, Chris.

David
Heh. Thanks.

The difference between Wireless Set No.1 (and/or 11) and Wireless Set No.52 (or the original No.9) is the intended role.

1 and 11 were "front line" sets intended for infantry/cavalry use (at battalion level) - Battalion to Brigade communication- and had to be portable, hence the separate power and aerial tuning units, and the set being a one man load. The original Wireless Set No.2 was intended for Brigade to Division (also AFV use), and would be vehicle mounted - not even Charles Atlas would be able to carry the set very far.

So for the Infantry sets everything had to be divided into man-portable loads - major components had carrying straps, custom webbing (Bags, Aerial Gear), and everything else went in Satchels.

Vehicle kit would be in (demountable) carriers and storage lockers/bins. Headsets and microphones would go in satchels to protect them from dirt and damage, giving easy access if they were suddenly required.

Wireless Set No.3 has one "Bags, Telephone Receiver" listed for the Ground Station and four specified for the Vehicle Station.

(I can't put my hand on the W.S.2 pamphlet right now - need to sort the bookcase out again!)

The WS52 will be similar: set semipermanently installed in a vehicle and ancillaries in the various storage boxes in cupboards. If the Remote Receiver is required it can be dropped off and carried to site for setting up. The Canadian remote control units were self contained, with the headset and microphone in their own compartment and a carrying strap for the complete unit.

At some point I'll produce a complete, illustrated, list of the "Satchel, Signals" range - there were at least 12 of them, for various distinct purposes, in a wide range of sizes and styles. (Some evolved over time as the shortcomings of the original design were discovered.) Satchel, Signals (no number, No.1 or No.1T) was the original, turning eventually into "Haversacks, No.1" in the mid 1950s; No.2 was the battery carrier for WS38 and WS18; No.3 (ditto) for the WS46 (without the wiring harness for the set - fit that and it becomes Carrier Battery WS46); 4, 5 & 6 were for various mine detectors; 7 is for the 60 watt pedal generator ancillaries; 8 is a weird zippered cover for something (probably mine detector related because it's under the Z5 DMC); 9 is one I've never seen; 10 is the backpack for WS 38 Mk.3; 11 is likewise unknown; and 12 is the carrier for the Detector, Mine, No.6A (lightweight version of the 4A for airborne and beach landing operations.

Chris.
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  #186  
Old 25-08-19, 08:20
Bruce MacMillan Bruce MacMillan is offline
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[QUOTE=David Dunlop;262864
The only vehicle install I have run across for the 52-Set is for the C15TA. Must reread it to see if a second Satchel, Signals shows up in it.
David[/QUOTE]

The manual I had for my M152 sigs van (C42/52 setup) lists 4 satchels. ZA27294 was "field pack, canvas, signal, No. 1, MK1/1. Manual was post WW2 dated 1961.
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  #187  
Old 25-08-19, 09:41
Chris Suslowicz Chris Suslowicz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce MacMillan View Post
The manual I had for my M152 sigs van (C42/52 setup) lists 4 satchels. ZA27294 was "field pack, canvas, signal, No. 1, MK1/1. Manual was post WW2 dated 1961.

OK, a bit of "research" - basically plugging NATO Stock Numbers into Google (and noticing that both the level and accuracy of detail returned has fallen dramatically over the last few years):

8465-99-973-6154 - SLIDE,WAIST BELT,BR CN/AA.1629

8465-99-973-6226 - BELT,LINEMAN - still leather, I think. CN/AA.0130

8465-99-973-6253 - FROG,WIRE CUTTER - for barbed wire cutter. CN/AA.0960

8465-99-973-6254 - FROG,WIRE CUTTER - for sidecutting pliers. CN/AA.0980

8465-99-973-6260 - LOOP,LEATHER

8465-99-973-6262 - RUNNER,SWIVEL - probably the leather loop for clasp knife on the lineman belt. CN/AA.1595

8465-99-973-6264 - FIELD PACK - not signals related CN/AA.1616 Satchels, Battery Staff, R.A., Mk.2

8465-99-973-6828 - SLIDE,WAISTBELT - CN/AA.1619

8465-99-940-0047 - FIELD PACK - HAVERSACKS, NO.1 (Replacing Z1/ZA.6292 & Z1/ZA.27294 - SATCHEL, SIGNALS No.1 & No.1T)

8465-99-978-8792 - FROG,WIRE CUTTER - a later version (DPM IRR)

5140-99-428-9823 - POUCH, TOOL, LINESMAN - webbing belt pouch

5140-99-428-9823 - POUCH, TOOLS, LINESMAN - DPM version

5140-99-901-5108 - CARRIER, TOOL, WEBBING - Hellerman tool carrier

And my "Satchel, Signals" list, accumulated over the years:

Satchel, Signals
____ - ZA.6292
No.1 - ZA.11947
No.1T - ZA.27294 (Patt. 44 green or Patt. 1937 khaki)
No.2 - ZA.13347 (Shoulder strap stitched to bag at one end)
No.2 Mk.2 - ZA.21324 (Detachable shoulder strap, 'L' strap fittings)
No.2 Mk.2/1 - ZA.29367 (Tropicalized version of ZA.21324)
No.3 - ZA.14869 (Wireless Set No.46 backpack - without harness, etc.)
No.4 -
No.5 - ZA.22756 (For Detector, Mine [Polish] No.3)
No.6 - ZA.24242 (for Detector, Mine, No.4 or 4A)
No.7 - ZA.24805 (For Charging Set, Pedal Driven, 60 Watt - ancillaries)
No.8 - ZA.24907 (Under section Z5, so bomb location & mine detector?)
No.9 -
No.10 - ZA.26516 (For Wireless Set No.38 Mk.3)
No.11 -
No.12 - ZA.29004 (For Detector, Mine, No.6A)

The "Satchel, Signals" range started as a single webbing item, replacing the previous leather "Bags, Telephone Receiver" and "Cases, Message Book, Mark V" according to the 1940 VAOS, with a stores code of ZA.6292. This is the earliest listing I have of the numbered "Vocabulary Of Army Ordnance Stores", and must be pretty close to the initial allocation of code numbers.

So, we begin with:

ZA.6292 Satchel, Signals
ZA.11947 Satchel, Signals No.1 (which I suspect was simply a redesignation).
ZA.27294 Satchel, Signals No.1T (Tropicalised version, also known as Satchel, Signals, No.1 Mk.1/1 - these appear in standard khaki or light green (1944 "jungle" webbing canvas), but all on the same stores code.

Then the switch to NATO Stock Numbers:

Z1/8465-99-940-0047 Haversack, No.1 - listed in the May 1960 CES for WS31 as an alternative to Z1/ZA.6292 Satchel, Signals.

This was still being manufactured in 1990, and possibly later still.

Haversack, No.1 mainly appears in dark green tropic-proofed canvas, identical to that used for the 1958 pattern web equipment, but I think some earlier satchels were marked with the new NSN. It's entirely possible that the khaki version continued for desert and Indian issue, since the "Pouch, Tool, Linesman" appears in both 1937 and 1958 shades of webbing, under the same NSN (as, indeed, does the much later nylon DPM version)!

I'm looking for the missing "Satchel, Signals, No.4" (which I think is a backpack for a mine detector and has a large hole in the bottom for cable entry from the search unit), and numbers 9 and 11 (which I have never seen), plus any variants I don't already have.

(I do have some US and Canadian manufactured satchels, mainly from WS19 installations, by various makers. I haven't bothered to compile a full list.)

Web searching is getting less useful as the density of advertising outweighs the actual information content (and my current browser seems to want to take over the world on occasion: filling the disk with 2GB of temporary storage that I think is just advertising crap that requires a restart just to get rid of it and restore normal functioning). Also errors are creeping in, as you can see from:

8465-99-973-6253 - FROG,WIRE CUTTER - for barbed wire cutter. CN/AA.0960
8465-99-973-6254 - FROG,WIRE CUTTER - for sidecutting pliers. CN/AA.0980

which are wildly different items (the portion after the '-' is my research).

Argh!

Chris.
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  #188  
Old 25-08-19, 16:38
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Hi Chris.

The Satchel referenced in the 52-Set Manual is Satchels Signal No. 1 (ZA 6292), but the manual goes on to state a number of variations of this particular satchel exist and all are compatible.

My 1944 RCA 19-Set Mk III came with Satchel Signal No. C1 (ZA/CAN 2120).

My Canadian used but partly American made Mk II 19-Set has a USA made satchel with large block letters across the top flap saying SATCHEL SIGNAL. No ZA or CAN numbering at all on it at all.

Interesting also how the words, Satchel, Satchels, Signal and Signals morphed around as well.

David
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  #189  
Old 25-08-19, 17:33
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Default 52-Set Remote Receiver

This last week, I have been running this receiver in the evenings, just to keep both of us happy. Reception results are typically poor at this time of year, but I was surprised at how good reception actually was and how well this receiver performs. It is not going to need much final tweaking, when I get around to it.

One signal that came in very well was a Spanish broadcast at 7.335 MCs at 20:00 hours local time. It took a bit of checking but it turned out to be what I am assuming is a relatively new US Government supported station called Radio Marti. It is based in Miami and is basically a news broadcaster targeting Cuba. Their signal floated in and out a bit but was remarkably clear.

While I was puttering with some research, I heard the two announcers mention Carlos Santana. My ears pricked up and next thing I knew they were playing several songs from his 1970ís album ABRAXES. I found it amusing to be sitting in a home built in the mid 1960ís, listening to a mid 1940ís military radio playing classic 1970ís music involving two languages and three different countries.

David
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  #190  
Old 26-08-19, 00:58
Chris Suslowicz Chris Suslowicz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dunlop View Post
Hi Chris.

The Satchel referenced in the 52-Set Manual is Satchels Signal No. 1 (ZA 6292), but the manual goes on to state a number of variations of this particular satchel exist and all are compatible.

My 1944 RCA 19-Set Mk III came with Satchel Signal No. C1 (ZA/CAN 2120).

My Canadian used but partly American made Mk II 19-Set has a USA made satchel with large block letters across the top flap saying SATCHEL SIGNAL. No ZA or CAN numbering at all on it at all.

Interesting also how the words, Satchel, Satchels, Signal and Signals morphed around as well.

David
There was a war on at the time and I don't think they were too fussy about the wording.

I have a few of the US satchels (came in the Pershing (T26E1) install kit) and some Canadian ones (Jelco 44, possibly others -they're all boxed up pending a proper inventory and photo session).

I have this tendency to collect webbing items with ZA, YA and some WA stores codes, in the hope of producing a definitive list (and illustrated catalogue) at some point.

Chris.
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  #191  
Old 17-09-19, 19:30
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Default Marconi 52-Set Flat Olive Drab (OD) Green paint

This is to set the record straight regarding an error I discovered this past weekend regarding information I has provided back in Post # 52.

In that earlier post I had identified the original paint inside my Coil, Aerial Tuning case as being an excellent example of No. 2 Brown. It is not.

Something compelled me to take the back cover off the coil case on the weekend and take it outside into the sunlight for a closer look. Surprise, surprise! It was not even close to being brown. Turns out to be a very original example of the flat Olive Drab (OD) Green Marconi was using on their 52-Set equipment.

To be certain, I brought my wooden 52-Set Tool Box to the patio and opened it up in the sunlight as well. When I placed the back cover from the coil case inside the Tool Box (which also has original paint inside it, the two colours were a perfect match.

The final, third test was to lug out the Spare Parts Box and open it up. It is lined inside with KimPak, however the visible woodwork inside also matched the OD Green on the other two items.

Happy with all that, I took the back cover from the coil case to our local RONA Store yesterday and had them scan it for matching in the paint shop. I now have one quart of paint available for refinishing both tool boxes.

If anyone is interested in the formula from RONA, it is as follows and was mixed with one quart of their SICO EVOLUTION 863-503, Base 3, in Eggshell Finish:


R 7
V 19
X 1 19 1
Y 1 3


One other observation I had on wartime paints over the weekend it that different finishes of the same colour, give differing visual results. The darkest colour appears to come from a flat finish. If the finish has a fine ‘wrinkle’ to it, the colour lightens. It lightens even more when the finish reaches a full wrinkle. I cannot help wonder if this effect is the result of light reflecting from all the different ridges, surfaces and angles on a true wrinkle finish?

David


NB: For some reason the first two colour codes are getting pushed to the first column. The '7' for R and the '19' for X should both be in the second column, directly above the other '19' and the '3'.

Last edited by David Dunlop; 17-09-19 at 19:36.
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