one for David Hayward?

[Richard Farrant]

David,

I have found an engine rebuild plate on a British Ford V8 engine, fitted to a WOT6. It says;
OVERHAULED BY 23 H.W.C. / FD

and is dated 1952. Now my question is this, was it a MoS contractor?, The "FD" part would appear to indicate Ford, but the 23 HWC part sounds like an army workshop.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

1. Under the Electrical and Mechanical Engineering Regulations, a code was stamped on all reconditioned engines so that any defective units or assemblies could be traced to their source. A code reference number consisting of symbols, indicating the repairer, followed by numerals indicating the month and year of overhaul.

The following reference letters had been allotted to workshops and commands [by 1944]:

COMMAND WORKSHOPS, ROYAL ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL ENGINEERS:
ALDERSHOT: ALD/-
CATTERICK: CAT/-
HIGH WYCOMBE,BUCKINGHAMSHIRE: HWB/-
MILL HILL [LONDON] MHL/-
BOVINGTON: BOV/-
CHILWELL: CHL/-
BICESTER: BIC/-
LINWOOD: LIN/-
GREENFORD/- GRE/-
DONNINGTON: DON/-

R.C.E.M.E. WORKSHOP, BORDON: BOR/-
G.M.C., CLECKHEATON: G.M.C./-
ROLLS-ROYCE LIMITED: RRN/-
VAUXHALL MOTORS LTD., DUNSTABLE^: VMD/-
SELF-CHANGING GEARS LIMITED: SCG/-
DAVID BROWN LTD., HUDDERSFIELD: DBH/-
MINISTRY OF SUPPLY REPAIRERS,OTHER THAN THE ABOVE*: MS/-
WORKSHOP DETACHMENT, R.E.M.E., D.H. WICKHAM AND CO., WARE: DWW/-
WORKSHOP DETACHMENT, R.E.M.E., L.P.T.B.,ACTON]: LPTB/-
COMMAND WORKSHOPS, R.E.M.E. OTHER THAN THE ABOVE:
NORTHERN COMMAND NOR
SOUTHERN COMMAND SOU
EASTERN COMMAND ECO
WESTERN COMMAND WES
SCOTTISH COMMAND SCT
LONDON DISTRICT LON
NORTHERN IRELAND DISTRICT NID


D.Ds.M.E. of Commands were to allot a serial number to each Command workshop in their Command which used the above reference letters. The appropriate number was to be stamped on repaired assemblies imediately following the reference letters, e.g. NOR/4/- which would indicate, say, Scorton workshops.
The standard position for the code reference numbers on engines was agreed with the Ministry of Supply. In the case of other engines or assemblies where no special position was specified, the reference number was to be stamped adjacent to the makers’ serial number. E.g. AEC were to be stamped on the offside of the engine at the front end of the cylinder block.


2. I agree that "FD" looks as though it is "Ford"...this would seem to be at the tail end of the post-war Ford V-8 rebuild programme, but I can't find any "HWC" code at the moment. I would suggest it was an Army base code, but the contract was from the Ministry of Supply. That said, MofS contracts placed with AC-Delco, Southampton, continued for oil-bath air filters for all manner of engines up to an including 1957.

The most famous of the post-war Ford V-8 rebuilders was Lincoln Cars Ltd of Brentford, who were a Ford of Britain subsidiary, and importers/spare parts suppliers of imported Ford, Mercury, Lincoln cars. However this ran out by 1953ish, and Lincoln then made space for the competition department and the industrial engine department...based in Dagenham but moved. In addition, Sydney Allard's Adlards Ltd still continued to rebuild V-8s after the war under contract, and then when that wound down had a ready souce of engines for his new Allard cars

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
1. Under the Electrical and Mechanical Engineering Regulations, a code was stamped on all reconditioned engines so that any defective units or assemblies could be traced to their source. A code reference number consisting of symbols, indicating the repairer, followed by numerals indicating the month and year of overhaul.

COMMAND WORKSHOPS, R.E.M.E. OTHER THAN THE ABOVE:

EASTERN COMMAND ECO

Thanks David,

I must have stamped " ECO2 " on hundreds of engine data plates in my time! 44 Command Workshop REME

The contracters list is new to me, so will keep as reference. Have you ever seen a list of the Army Auxillary Workshops (AAW), with codes starting B... ?

[PPS]

David,

Purely as a matter of interest to me, would the Bordon you mentioned be the one "loved" by all R.E.M.E vehicle mechanics and associated trades (Havannah and Martinique Barracks)?

Paul.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

.....right, Paul!

This list was taken from an original printed luist and I think I got it off Bill Purchase? There are so many companies not listed...I suppose they came under the "MS/" description.

HQ Southern Command I know was based at Beaver's Camp, Beavers Lane, Hounslow, Middlesex as I lived 1/2 mile away, and it was a few yards on the opposite side of the road to Hounslow Cavalary Barracks. It was built on Beaver's Farm under wartime regs by the War Office and was promised to be handed back to the local authority post-war for housing. Nearly 40 years later it was still MoD! However, it was so extensive that I am sure that they did vehicle repairs there.

I wonder if Bill has the AAW list? I have never seen one. I was interested at the time of receipt of the copy in the Cleckheaton Plant code, as I have their figures.


GENERAL MOTORS LIMITED, MARSH MILLS, CLECKHEATON
DESPATCHES

1942 “B” SOFT-SKINNED VEHICLE ENGINES:

CHEVROLET 688
G.M.C. 313
MERCURY 33
HILLMAN 12
COMMER 1
FORD 18
MORRIS 3
ALBION 5
BEDFORD 2
GARDNER 6
THORNYCROFT 1
DODGE 6
TILLING STEVENS1

TOTAL 1089

VAUXHALL A.22 12
A.E.C. 1

TOTAL 13

1943 “A” ENGINES [SOFT SKINNED VEHICLES]:

CHEVROLET 2082
G.M.C. 577
JEEP 56
WHITE 3
F.W.D. 2
HILLMAN 1
FORD 3
BEDFORD 2
GARDNER 24
HUMBER 3
A.E.C. 1
DODGE 2
DIAMOND T 12
“BICESTER” 120

TOTAL 2,888

“A” ENGINES [ARMOURED VEHICLES]:

VALENTINE [G.M.C.*] 100

GRAY 2
QUAD 72
TOTAL 74

1944 “B ENGINES [SOFT-SKINNED VEHICLES]:

CHEVROLET 2082
G.M.C. 325
F.W.D. 1
GARDNER 50
DIAMOND T 10
JEEP 297

TOTAL 3,534

“A” ENGINES [ARMOURED VEHICLES]:

VALENTINE [G.M.C.*] 55
SHERMAN TWIN 4

TOTAL 59

QUAD 777
GRAY. 190

TOTAL 967


“B” ENGINES [SOFT-SKINNED VEHICLES]:

CHEVROLET 3087
G.M.C. 112
WHITE 1
GARDNER 8
DIAMOND T 13
MACK 2
JEEP 1581

TOTAL 4,804

“A” ENGINES [ARMOURED VEHICLES]:

SHERMAN 4
G.M. DIESEL 32

TOTAL 36

QUAD . 652
GRAY 207

TOTAL 859

ADM. SAL. 35


*G.M.C. DIESEL 4 ¼ X 5 IN BORE & STROKE, 2-CYCLE , 80 B.H.P. OR “TWIN” 190 B H.P. @ 1,900 R.P.M.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Note the Opel Admiral Saloon engines!

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
engine rebuild plate on a British Ford V8 engine, fitted to a WOT6. It says;
OVERHAULED BY 23 H.W.C. / FD

David,

A correction on my part.

Pity I did not write the plate details when I was looking at it! The wording actually said;

WORKSHOP 23 H.W.C. / FD

Does that make any sense?

Richard

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I have now found a list of abbreviations for 1950s RAOC Depots:

1st Vehicle Group RAOC HQ Ashchurch in Gloucestershire:
12th B Vehicle Depot Ashchurch [ASC]
13th A Vehicle Depot Ludgershall [LUD] in Wiltshire.
2nd Vehicle Group RAOC HQ Feltham in Middlesex:
21st B Vehicle Depot Feltham [FTM] [near where I lived 1955-65]
22nd B Vehicle Group Laleham [LHM] in Middlesex.
3rd Vehicle Group HQ Church Broughton in Derbyshire:
31st B Vehicle Depot Church Broughton [CBR]
33rd B Vehicle Depot Derby [DBY]
6th Vehicle Group HQ Georgetown in Renfrewshire:
61st B Vehicle Depot Georgetown [GEO]
62nd B Vehicle Depot Eglington [EGL] in Ayrshire.
7th Vehicle Group HQ Castle Donnington in Leicestershire:
72nd B Vehicle Depot Market Harborough [MKH] in Leicestershire.
75th B Vehicle Depot Turweston [TWN] in Buckinghamshire.

Also Bicester [BIC] in Oxfordshire which was a Base Ordnance Depot [BOD] until 1956 when it became a Central Ordnance Depot [COD].

[Richard Farrant]

David,

More thoughts..........It could be 23 Heavy Workshop REME, which was formed in Wetter, in the Ruhr, post war. This rebuild plate is dated 1952, it just might relate to a rebuild contract with Ford in Germany.

Probably will never know, but interesting to try and piece a vehicles history.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

This is from Brian, the Tech Historian at the REME Museum:

What an extremely interesting document you have discovered! I had not come across that info before. Most of the workshops listed are known but some of th commercial establishments were clearly under contract to the MoS. The one bit of info we have all been looking for for years is the code list for MoS repair units which all had a numerical code which was stamped on vehicle data plates during a major overhaul. Those done in REME workshops usually used the abbreviated workshop title which is no problem but the MoS numbers remain a mystery. They were still using the system long after the War when very few MoS workshops remained.

As regards the Ford V8 I would be almost certain that this refers to 23 Heavy Workshop at Wetter, Germany. This began life as a semi mobile Advanced Base Workshop, one of four sent to France late in 1944. It changed location a few times but soon after the German surrender it moved into the Demag crane works at Wetter, Ruhr, which had been making half tracks and other military material and had been severely flooded after the Dam raids. The Unit Title changed to 23 Heavy Workshop and later back to Base Workshop. It disbanded in the early 1990s. The 'C' in the abbreviation may mean company as for a short time there was a system of branding workshops as workshop companies. That has returned in more recent times with the REME resources in a division now called REME battalions divided up into support companies.

In 1952 BAOR was so huge it needed the base repair support of several workshops, No 4 at Bad Oeynhausen, 22 at Hamburg, 23 at Wetter and Rhine Workshop at Moenchen Gladbach. The former two had disappeared by the mid 1950s but the latter two existed till the end of BAOR.

So, your assumption was correct, and I have learned a heck of a lot more than before!

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
So, your assumption was correct, and I have learned a heck of a lot more than before!

thanks David,

It was seeing your list and expanding on it that gave me the idea of Wetter. Ironically, the engine is out of a Fordson WOT6 Machinery truck, ie. a REME mobile workshop. The whole vehicle appears to have been rebuilt in 1952, same year as the engine, so it was probably done over there.

I love this detective work

[rewdco]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
Thanks David,

I must have stamped " ECO2 " on hundreds of engine data plates in my time! 44 Command Workshop REME

Dear David, Dear Richard,

This is a Royal Enfield WD/CO engine from contract C/12425 (delivery of this contract started in August ’43, ended in June ’44). The number under the cilinder is a post war restamp, but I have always thought that the “ECO 16 12 45” meant “Enfield Company” plus a rebuild date. It will of course have been “Eastern Command” where this rebuild took place! I have checked this date in an eternal calender though, and it appears to have been a Sunday…

REgards,
Jan

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I believe that I have made a major boo-boo! I am pretty certain that HQ Southern Command was in Aldershot. However HQ Eastern Command, not Southern Command as I mis-remembered, was in the Cavalry Barracks in Beavers Lane, Hounslow, Middlesex. Dad says that Beavers Camp which was set-up in wartime on Hounslow Heath, opposute side of the road and about a hundred yards west, had massive workshop facilities. That is where trucks and probably motorcyles were refurbished post-war. I think the RASC moved from Feltham to Beavers Camp, and at some stage the Signals were there as well. So, ECO = Beavers Camp, Hounslow I think!

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
I believe that I have made a major boo-boo! I am pretty certain that HQ Southern Command was in Aldershot. However HQ Eastern Command, not Southern Command as I mis-remembered, was in the Cavalry Barracks in Beavers Lane, Hounslow, Middlesex.

So, ECO = Beavers Camp, Hounslow I think!

David,

I did not spot that!

It could be that HQ just used ECO, I know for sure that 14 Comd Wksp REME, Ashford Kent was ECO2, later changed to 44. Other Command Workshops in the Command would have been Mill Hill and Colchester, but not sure of their code numbers.