Indian 640 Canadian

[rob love]

At work (if you can call working on mliitary vehicles in a museum setting work ) I am trying to re-assemble an Indian 640 with sidecar. I believe it to be a Canadian or British service model as it does not have the US style lighting on the rear fender, but rather the single commercial type light. Is anyone here familiar with them, or have a parts manual for the Cdn model? I have a few queries that I can't find the answers to with what little I have found on the net.

[rwhovey]

Rob, Please PM as I have a friend that is knowledgeable on all things WWII Indian.

Randy

[welbike]

Hi Rob and Randy,

Have done some research into this subject, as I have one of these bikes too, they are very rare, as most were converted to civvy Sportscouts after the war, and raced also, as they were very quick!

There were Brit contracts, one for only 2 bikes, No's 640 4445 and 4446 the other unknown for now, my frame number is 4443, and since it was found on Ceylon in the 60's is believed to be from a British contract too, but no evidence as yet.

Canadian contracts were for the "early" models, so civvy airfilters etc. numbers ran from 640 1517 to 640 2067 numbering 550 bikes, please let me know if the museums bike falls into this category?

Have some Canadian pictures, but mostly whithout sidecar, (just looked, one is with sidecar) are you sure it's a 640, and not a 340?

Email me direct, and I'll send you the pictures.

Have most parts lists and manuals.

Randy, if your friend knows more about the contracts etc. please let me know.

Cheers,

Lex Schmidt

[rob love]

Lex
Thanks for the info, I have sent you a PM.

[welbike]

Rob, 4 emails sent.

Below a picture of the thing;

Still looking for an original saddle bridge casting, footboards and some more small stuff.

Cheers,

Lex

[rob love]

Originally Posted by welbike

Canadian contracts were for the "early" models, so civvy airfilters etc. numbers ran from 640 1517 to 640 2067 numbering 550 bikes, please let me know if the museums bike falls into this category?

Cheers,

Lex Schmidt

Lex
Forgot the camera today, but did check out the frame numbers. The frame is 640 1537 and the engine number is FDO 1537. Good to know it is in the Canadian block of serials.

[welbike]

Good news Rob! please don't forget your camera on Monday!!

Cheers,

Lex

[rob love]

I'll be in to the shop on Sunday...hard to stay away. I'll hopefully snap some shots then.

Would you be able to post a shot of the front forks diagram from the parts manual Lex? The front forks were taken apart and some of the hardware lost. That is one of the areas I am trying to re-assemble.

And of course, I am looking for a parts diagram or closeup of the axle stub on the sidecar. I am missing some form of spacer/retainer on the outer portion.

[David Dunlop]

Rob.

If you need parts, the following dealer in California specializes in pre- 1953 Indian bikes:

http://www.kiwiindian.com


David

[rob love]

I have seen their site along with a dozen other Indian sites. I want to do my homework before starting to order the wrong parts. The front suspension parts originally on this bike are slightly different form any of the drawings I have found on the net. When I can find the right drawings, I'll better know what I need to buy or make.

[welbike]

David, that is mostly repro, and mostly only for the Chiefs (1200cc)

Jerry Greers have more parts for Sportscouts and such, of which the 640 is a derivate.

https://www.jerrygreersengineering.com/catalog.php

There are very clear diagrams on that website Rob, but will look in the manual later.

This one here should be the right one;

https://www.jerrygreersengineering.c...42&m=Spt_Scout

And ofcourse there is ofcourse Ziggy's;

http://www.ziggysmotorworks.com/inindex.htm

Cheers,

Lex

[welbike]

Well, while I'm behind the computer, might aswell do it now:



and



Hope this is clear enough? they are big scans, so hope it works,

Lex

PS if you click on the image, and then it opens in a new window, then click on "view larger image", then you should have the biggest size.

[rob love]

Thanks for the posts and links. When I hit the photos though, they take me to the G503 website where I need a password to view your album.

I saved the photos to my computer and they expand reasonably well. I also already have saved the photo from Gerry Greer's site as it was the closest I could find to what I have here. There seems to be a variation to the two upper shackle bolts on this bike. Rather than a bolt, this one has a long rod that is threaded for a short bit on one end, and a longer length on the other end, which will be for the one threaded shackle. I made the jam nuts, but I guess my main query was on the size and quantity of spacers and or thrust washers. I see there are no thrust washers used, but two spacers at the rear upper shackle bolt (or rod in my case).

Or does it? Your parts diagram shows item #34 (pn 42616) spacer as being on the forward bolt, but then lists it as belonging to the lower link. Because the manual does not offer the quantity used per equipment, it is hard to determine if the bike just uses two or 4 of these.

I am certainly closer to assembling this correctly than I was before, so thank you.

The bike had been disassembled by a well meaning volunteer a couple of years ago, who left before completing the job. Since then, the bike went to the base workshop, where it also sat for a long time before we finally retrieved it back. So in it's journeys a few parts seem to have been waylaid.

Unfortunately, this is too common in the museum. I have about a dozen vehicles which have been left in various states of partial disrepair. The parts then seem to move with the tide to various other parts of the building, or put into boxes or containers and join the thousands of other boxes and containers on shelves and corners. At times, the job seems more like a game show where you see a letter turn over, and have to remember where you saw the other one just like it. Fortunately I am pretty good at that game.

[David Dunlop]

Any known history on the bike, Rob? Service vehicle from Shilo, donation, etc.?

David

[rob love]

It was one from the Bill Gregg collection. It has a DND number on it, but it is unknown if the number was correct for the vehicle. The DND number indicates an acceptance year of 1942, so it is hard to say if this is correct. Of the few Canadian photos I have seen, 41 seems to be more the norm.

[welbike]

Rob, since my bike is still in a thousand bits, I have no idea how many washers go there, but if you call my good friend Robin Markey from Bob's Indians in Etters PA, I'm sure he can tell you off the top of his head, and they sell parts too.

http://www.bobsindian.com/

Tell him I sent you! (ask for Robin in any case)

He has what must be the most photographed 640 in the world, if you google Indian 640, you will see all kinds of sdtuff with his bike on it!!

Below it is, some years ago, for a change he's on the back, and I'm riding it.

Cheers,

Lex

[rob love]

Lex
Between your scans and the scans on Jerry Greer's site, I think I have it. His site is especially valuable since he gives a lot of dimensions of each part as well. My two "rods" may have just been a production convenience. Far easier (and cheaper) to make a long rod threaded on the ends than to make a long hex headed bolt.

I see he has a reprint of the manual for the 640 with serial numbers just ending before the Canadian numbers. I'll get that ordered this week.

[Stew Robertson]

Rob
this bike when found had the same markings and was put back together as found
there is some cobbled parts in the distributor as we could not find originals as it was done before the internet and all this excess info was out there
I have no original pictures but here is one before Shilo and one at the Crearar
ceremony

[rob love]

Stewart
As always, thanks very much for the photos and especially for the information.

I wouldn't say that there is an excess of information out there, but at the same time it is certainly many thousand times quicker than the old days of writing letters, or waiting until 2 in the morning to make very expensive phone calls to other parts of the globe. How far we have come.

Aside from re-assembling it and locating the missing parts, the only other changes envisioned at this time are to install a sidecar fender lamp (if applicable....still waiting for more data), adding the arm rests to the sides of the sidecar, and possibly a new floor in the sidecar. The thin metal there is really starting to show it's age. Perhaps those who have climbed into it in the past decade or two tend to be a bit heavier than the builders intended back in the 1940s.

The bike is missing the speedometer and the cover over the instruments, however I note that the speedometer alone is well over $1200 Cdn these days, so we'll possibly have to wait until a funding surplus presents itself.

After seeing the drawings on the Jerry Greer site, I have to check the chain length to the generator. I note the present cover over it does not allow the generator to tighten up fully, and the chain has worn into the driving end housing. It would appear that the cover may be incorrect, as it does not seem to mount the same way as the ones illustrated on his site. I'll see of the present cover has the right dimensions.

I like to keep about 3 projects going at once so I can make better determinations as to what is correct, rather than plowing full steam ahead on one project and wasting efforts towards incorrect restoration. Hopefully by the spring I can report here that the bike is "back in service".

[Stew Robertson]

Keep up the great work Rob
It sure is good to see the Gregg collection being finally worked on
Between all the project you have going thanks for your persistence and push and expertise in bring it to tuition
I thought for many years it was all forgotten and all our work was in vain

I still have the original rope gate for Crear's caravan'
if you have something going west let me know
PS: hopefully some day the caravan will be put onto the right truck

[rob love]

Originally Posted by Stew Robertson

Keep up the great work Rob
It sure is good to see the Gregg collection being finally worked on
Between all the project you have going thanks for your persistence and push and expertise in bring it to tuition
I thought for many years it was all forgotten and all our work was in vain

I still have the original rope gate for Crear's caravan'
if you have something going west let me know
PS: hopefully some day the caravan will be put onto the right truck

Stew
No compliments needed, it is an honor to work on this stuff.

Tuition? I think the word is "fruition". Funy you should use that word. It is one of the prowords I used to use when writing PERs. In fact I used it with some frequency that my boss in Afghanistan started making fun of me. I left for 6 months, and when I cam back he had to admit to having adopted the word himself in some PERS. Anyway, I am starting to ramble.

I was remiss in not following through with those ropes a couaple years ago. I have the purolator account number which I was supposed to give you to get them brought to here. There is a tractor trailer leaving Pet tommorow bringing us some artifacts and taking some back your way (as well as moving a LAV) but I suspect the timelines are a little short to make that work.

By the way, as I think I may have previously reported, we have purchased a closed top Diamond T cab and chassis from California, which is slated to be restored and the van body moved across. On paper this is tentatively planned for 2018, but of course there are always surprises and priorities can change. Then we will be able to re-assemble the open top Diamond T with it's wrecker body.

Hopefully you will make it out here again one day for a visit and see what progress has been made at the museum. Still a long way to go of course, and I am not sure I will live long enough to get it all done, but labor is accumulative, and it's done one hour at a time.

[David Dunlop]

Good to hear about the caravan, Rob. And as for the Indian sidecar setup, that is one nice looking combination! For some reason, an image of you and Mr. Derrin racing about on it comes to mind!

David

[rob love]

The lighting in the shop make everything look yellow. My apologies.
This is the bike in question. There is also a photo of the sidecar outer hub. Something is missing from there.

[rob love]

As an aside, this is the other item I am performing a little maintenance on. Just like the older vehicles, what starts as a simple job turns into 10 other jobs. I brought it in for excessive smoke on start up and hard starting. That was over a week ago. It will hopefully be done this week. On top of the tune-up and checking a few injectors, it has fed over to a compression test, replacing an exhaust manifold gasket, an oil change, replacing all crossover lines, replacing a xmsn temp switch, repairing the tachometer cable, repairing the oil pressure gauge, a zero pressure check and replenishing the oil in the turret hydraulics (thanks for the help Laun), pumping up the equilibrator, refilling the nitrogen in the main accumulator, (shhhhh.....don't tell the artillery.....cleaning rust from the breech area), and likely a few more jobs which will crop up.

The artillery want to come by for a bit of professional development/"the way we used to do it" briefings next week.

[welbike]

Rob,

Looks nice!! but why did they took it apart in the first place??

In the older photos you can see it has a real late "Harley" style airfilter on it, probably from an Indian 741 it should have the civvy version, much easier and cheaper then the tall round one that I have (appx. $1200.00) and you don't need the special inlet tube casting.

Have no idea whats missing on the sidecar wheel as the parts books don't cover the sidecar, but have an Indian 340 p/l somewhere, will look in there if I can find it, they had the same sidecars.

Speedo's are indeed pricey, but so is everything Indian, I have found out!!

This is the Speedo (Corbin) that you need, NOT the same as 741! (see below)

There is a guy in Canada that does real good work;

http://www.speedoshop.net/?p=productsList

Cheers,

Lex

[rob love]

I have noticed that Indian parts are not cheap. When I restored a folding bike the other year I thought parts were expensive. Now I am starting to see what expensive really is. Seems like a speedo runs in the $1100 range when you can find it.

I can't explain why people like taking things apart. It's just something people do. Have you ever left a camera or a watch on the kitchen table to later find out a child has disassembled it just for the sake of doing so?

There are parts still on the bench for it, such as the gas tanks, the lines, and the air cleaner. Once I get back onto this project in a week or so, I have to make up a list of parts to order, and it should hopefully be driving again this summer.

[David Dunlop]

Definitely a different look between the two side cars in this thread. Any indications if this was specific to USA and Canadian Contracts, or just a variation between early and late overall production?

David

[welbike]

David, better disregard the sidecar in my picture, that is I believe a pre-war Indian Princess sidecar, not necessarily Military.

Here an original Canadian picture of a 640 with sidecar;



And another, with the civvy aircleaner visible, pictures from Canadian Archives via Clive Law.



Cheers,

Alex

[DenisLutman]

Hi, I accidentally ran across this forum and was excited to see a thread about Canadian Army 640s.
I'm restoring one as well and have learned A LOT about these motorcycles and would like to share some information.

First, here's mine as I bought it. It came from way north of Saskatoon.



Here are two photos as it stands now, nearly finished.

[derk derin]

I call shotgun!
Derk