Morris CS8 2 Pounder Portee

[Attilio]

THE 2 POUNDER PORTEE MORRIS CS8 IS A 4X2 OR 4X4 TRUCK?

I HAVEN'T SEE A PHOTO OF THIS TRUCK IN ACTION WITH THE GUN MOUNTED ON THE REAR.

WAS IT EFFECTIVELY USED DURING THE NORTH AFRICA CAMPAIGN?

THANKS
ATTILIO

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Hello again! My interest in the MCC portees is because they mimicked the Canadian 2-Pounder Chevrolet portees. May I refer you to WHEELS & TRACKS # 30, page 28 on 'MORRIS QUAD DERIVATIVES'?

However what was not explained was that the original 2-Pounder cavalry portees [1937-8] were based on the 4 x 2 Morris-Commercial C.S.8.T chassis, which were 15-cwt. or 3/4 Ton capacity officially. The 1939-on C.8/AWD* 'Quad' Field Artillery Tractor 4 x 4 spawned derivatives, the initial portees being the C.8/MG for 'Mobile Gun' which had a similar chassis to the Quad gun tractor but less the PTO and so had no winch. The third contract for Quads incorporated an order for C.8/AT 2-pounder portees which again had no winch, and were very simiar to the Chevrolet FAT derivatives. We know that a quantity shipped out to the Mid-East were initially allocated/loaned to the AIF [and NZEF?] and after technical sale in 1941 were then shipped on to Australasia for further service. Some were rebuilt in late 1943 by MCC in Birmingham to form 17-pounder tractors, and of those some became airportable versions. As you know some 2-pounder Chevrolet portees were converted to 17-pounder tractors as well.


* I should add here that I have at last ascertained that the two prototype Morris-Commercial 25-pounder gun tractors, a photo of which was in W & T 28, H 384296/7 to V.3215/ February 9th 1938, were officially 'C.S.8/F.W.D.' models, and therefore at some stage duroing 1938 the 'C.S.8' designation became 'C.8' for the 4 x 4 chassis. Perhaps those with more knowledge than me on MCC can comment further on this?

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
The 1939-on C.8/AWD* 'Quad' Field Artillery Tractor 4 x 4 spawned derivatives, the initial portees being the C.8/MG for 'Mobile Gun' which had a similar chassis to the Quad gun tractor but less the PTO and so had no winch. The third contract for Quads incorporated an order for C.8/AT 2-pounder portees which again had no winch, and were very simiar to the Chevrolet FAT derivatives. We know that a quantity shipped out to the Mid-East were initially allocated/loaned to the AIF [and NZEF?].

* Perhaps those with more knowledge than me on MCC can comment further on this?

Any comments on these Morrisi survivors? (What IS the plural for Morris?)The first one is a Gun Tractor, with winch:

[Tony Smith]

And a Portee version, is it?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

I believe that the plura; is 'MORRISES'. However, they were the product of Morris Commercial Cars Limited of Adderley Park, Birmingham, the former Wolseley Motors factory and had 'MORRIS-COMMERCIAL' badges, as against Morris Motors Limited, Longbridge, Birmingham [RIP, April 2005!] which produced the cars. Different companies, different shareholdings, different histories, although by 1936 grouped by Lord Nuffield, aka William Morris under the Nuffield Group umbrella. The plural is therefore 'MORRIS-COMMERCIALS', or' MCCs'.

The FAT and the portee were I suggest issued to the NZEF in the Mid-East, then sold sometime after mid-1941 to the NZ Government, and then shipped to the islands for further service. The FAT could in fact have been an Austin Motors- built one. We need to know the contract number if there is one on the data plate. The FAT I suggest is a C.8/AT but which mark, Mark 111?? I am no expert!

[Mike Kelly]

David your knowledge of MCC military vehicle history far exceeds what any of us knows....

I know of around six Morris Commercial 4X4 C8 2 pounder portess here in OZ . All are in a dreadful state with no rear body left . There was one lying in Kilmore wrecking yard just Nth of Melbourne in the late 70's , it was crushed in a scrap metal purge .

Two others were owned by a MV club member here and are reportedly back in Melbourne somewhere . Both are incomplete.

Another three were in NSW owned by a well known collector, all incomplete . One is pictured . The NZ one pictured looks to be a good restoration item . We got no MCC artillery quads though , seems the kiwis got em instead .

Mike

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

David your knowledge of MCC military vehicle history far exceeds what any of us knows....

Sorry but I know nothing about MCC! I desperately need to find about the 6-wheeler CD series history [although the 'D' and predecessor story was in HERITAGE COMMERCIALS December 2003/January 2004]. Trouble is no-one seems to have written any books and I cannot pin anyone down who can assist. I have had to do the really hard job of digging up as much as I can from all manner of sources. I realy think Bovington is going to be a goldmine when I can get down there as they have the WD MCC record cards.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

The 1936 WD Trials had the following MCC trucks:

MCC Leader 2-tonners C.S.10/80 and C.S.14/80
C.2 4-wheel instructional lorry with dual controls and tilt body with seats

C.S.8.T Series 3 ...developed from Series 1 and II, both having been used in Egypt. It appears that the C.S.8.T date to 1935 at least.

In the 1938 Trials the C.S.8.T Mk III had been fitted with a Saurer diesel engine.

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by David_Hayward
as against Morris Motors Limited, Longbridge, Birmingham [RIP, April 2005!] which produced the cars.

David,

Correction ! Longbridge was the home of the Austin Motor Co. Ltd. Morris Motors Ltd. factory was at Cowley, Oxford.

A few years ago I had to repair a winch from a MCC C8 FAT and cast on the main gear carrier inside, was "AUSTIN MORRIS". I thought that to be odd as they did not merge into BMC until 1952 and no Austin military trucks that I am aware of, used that type of winch. But somewhere in the back of my mind, I am sure the Austin actually built some Morris Commercial military vehicles during the War. Perhaps someone else knows more?

Richard

[Richard Farrant]

Originally posted by Richard Farrant
A few years ago I had to repair a winch from a MCC C8 FAT and cast on the main gear carrier inside, was "AUSTIN MORRIS". I thought that to be odd as they did not merge into BMC until 1952 and no Austin military trucks that I am aware of, used that type of winch. But somewhere in the back of my mind, I am sure the Austin actually built some Morris Commercial military vehicles during the War.

Ahh, I've just answered my own question, I missed the second paragraph on one of your messages, David. About Austins building C8 FAT, that would account why Austin and Morris name was on the winch part. We're learning all the time !

Richard

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Why on earth I said Morris were at Longbridge I shall never know! Austin Motors = Longbridge, Birmingham; MG = Abingdon, Berkshire as it was in at the time; 'Morris Car branch' = Cowley, Oxford, now BMW Oxford [MINI]; Morris Commercial Cars = Adderley Park, Birmingham 8; Wolseley = Ward End, Birmingham; 'Morris Engine branch' = Coventry.

Bart stated that Contract V.3825 was for 1,000 vehicles, half being sub-contracted to Austins in Longbridge who during 1940-44 co-produced 6,700 Morris chassis. Wolseley apparently built CD/SW chassis for MCC, though whether Austins built any 6 x 4 MCC chassis I have no idea...I have however a photo recently sent of a Longbridge-built Austin CV & WD 6 x 4 chassis.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

Since the closure of this museum the vehicle records have been transferred to the Royal Logistics Corps Museum at the RLC Training Centre, Princess Royal Barracks, Blackdown, Deepcut, Camberley, Surrey, GU16 6RW, Tel. 01252 340984.

International would be +44 1252 340984.

I have now spoken to the charming lady in the Library/Archives. She says that they have perhaps three boxes of cards, with possibly the earliest 1939 and they run to 1970 with a lot missing. I do get confused here as she said that they had thousands of records but I was not sure if that mean that the boxes were packed or whether the boxes she mentioned were just the early ones. The cards show the dates of disposal.

I have agreed to pop along to Deepcut, possibly with mu wife's brother who has just retired as a TA major in the RLC, and see what they do have. However has anyone already been there please?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

quote:
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This is what David Fletcher commented:


quote:
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My copy of the Consolidated Key List came from Bart Vanderveen via John Marchant as I recall. I am not aware of one in the PRO although they should have a copy. However I suspect they had one at the Museum of Army Transport which, in theory, should end up in the National Army Museum archives one day.
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I am trying to find out whether the RLC Museum or NAM have the CKL.

David

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Attilio
THE 2 POUNDER PORTEE MORRIS CS8 IS A 4X2 OR 4X4 TRUCK?

WAS IT EFFECTIVELY USED DURING THE NORTH AFRICA CAMPAIGN?

Attilio, here's a picture, not of a 2-pdr Portee, but none the less of a Morris-Commercial 15-cwt in use with the French in Africa. It seems to be wearing a Caunter camouflage scheme.

H.

[Attilio]

Thanks Hanno!

I have find this pics on British Pathe

The only pic of the Morris CS8 portee that i have found is one of IWM captured in Western Country I think.

Regards

Attilio

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Attilio
THE 2 POUNDER PORTEE MORRIS CS8 IS A 4X2 OR 4X4 TRUCK?

I HAVEN'T SEE A PHOTO OF THIS TRUCK IN ACTION WITH THE GUN MOUNTED ON THE REAR.

WAS IT EFFECTIVELY USED DURING THE NORTH AFRICA CAMPAIGN?

THANKS
ATTILIO

There is a photo currently on e-bay of a Morris 2pdr Portee in Egypt. The same seller is also selling another pic of what appears to be a 37mm Bofors towed by a 15cwt Morris.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Tony Smith
The same seller is also selling another pic of what appears to be a 37mm Bofors towed by a 15cwt Morris.

Can´t find it.

I did find British Special Truck Camo Over 2LB Anti-Tank Gun Photo (Item number: 6529075980).

H.

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
I did find British Special Truck Camo Over 2LB Anti-Tank Gun Photo (Item number: 6529075980).

That's the one, Hanno. The gun sheild on the e-bay pic looks more like the 37mm Bofors AT gun rather than the 2pdr AT gun. The upper half on the 2pdr sheild folds forward, not inclined back like the Bofors sheild.

[Tony Smith]

2pdr sheild:

[Attilio]

I agree: the truck in the photo of e-bay looks like to the bofors 37 mm portee

Regards

Attilio

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

some stage duroing 1938 the 'C.S.8' designation became 'C.8' for the 4 x 4 chassis

The reason may have been because in MCC parlance 'S' stood for 6-cylinder engine apparently: the 'C.S.8/F.W.D' (sic.) prototypes had 6-cylinder engines [3.49 litres]. The production C.8/FWD FATs used a 4-cylinder side valve 3519 c.c. 24.8 hp engine whereas the predecessor 4 x 2 C.S.8T War Department 15-cwt had Morris 4-cylinder 2.83 litre engines.

The limited-production Morris Q series 4 x 4 on the other hand used 26.8 hp. 6-cylinder 3,745 c.c. ohv engines producing 97 bhp.

I have read that the Guy Quad Ant was a 'C.8' officially and suggest that for reasons of conformity the Quad Ant and production C.8/FWD dropped the 'S' as they used a 4-cylinder engine and the Guy had a comparable 4-cylinder Meadows unit. Thus both became 'C.8' models officially though that does not explain how the C.S.8T had an 'S' in the model designation but a 4-cylinder engine!

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
I did find British Special Truck Camo Over 2LB Anti-Tank Gun Photo (Item number: 6529075980).

Here's the picture. I don't know if it sold, possibly it pops up again at eBay.

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

David Fletcher published an article recently that had a photo of a 1936ish MCC CS8T Cavalry Portee. I have found a photo at Bovington of one...did these have any wartime use as they seem to predate the 4 x 4s?

[David_Hayward (RIP)]

"Troops man a mobile 12-pdr gun, mounted on the back of a lorry, at Fort Horsted, Chatham, 1 December 1940".

http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/med...e/H_005865.jpg

I bought a print of this...it's an Albion 6 x 4 of around 1936-7 vintage. No idea yet which model but I have the census number somewhere ... just not near my filing cabinet!

[Tony Smith]

Originally posted by Mike Kelly
The NZ one pictured looks to be a good restoration item . We got no MCC artillery quads though , seems the kiwis got em instead .

Morris Quad project on Trade Me. The seller says it is sitting on a Ford 3 ton truck chassis that is for sale in another auction. Is this rear body the same as a CMP gunTractor?

[Gunner]

There is a famous painting of the action described below but I couldn't find the image. Shows the 2 pounder firing while portee.

2nd Lt. George Gunn, VC, MC, RHA (1912-1941)

2nd Lieutenant George Ward Gunn MC of the 3rd Regiment Royal Horse Artillery, VC citation reads:

"On November 21st 1941, at Sidi Rezegh, 2nd Lt Gunn was in command of a troop of four anti-tank guns which was part of a battery of 12 guns attached to the Rifle Brigade Column. At ten o'clock a covering force of enemy tanks was engaged and driven off, but an hour later the main attack by about 60 enemy tanks developed, 2nd Lt Gunn drove from gun to gun during this period in an unarmoured vehicle encouraging his men and reorganising his dispositions as first one gun and then another were knocked out. Finally, only two guns remained in action and were subjected to very heavy fire. Immediately afterwards one of these guns was destroyed and the portee of the other was set on fire and all the crew killed or wounded except the sergeant, though the gun remained undamaged. The battery commander then arrived and began to fight the flames. When he saw this, 2nd Lt Gunn ran to his aid through intense fire and immediately got the one remaining anti-tank gun into action on the burning portee, himself sighting it whilst the sergeant acted as loader. He continued to fight the gun, firing between 40 and 50 rounds regardless alike of the enemy fire which was by then concentrated on this one vehicle and on the flames which might at any moment have reached the ammunition with which the portee was loaded. In spite of this, 2nd Lt Gunn's shooting was so accurate at a range of about 800 yards that at least two enemy tanks were hit and set on fire and others were damaged before he fell dead, having been shot through the forehead."

http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/WH...H2Art031a.html

UBIQUE!

Mike

[chrisgrove]

One reason that no pictures of the 2pdr in action portee, is that 'portee' actually means 'carried' (French!). Neither the CS8 and C8 portees were intended to have the gun actually fire from the truck, merely to carry it, as apparently the 2 pdr carriage was not strong enough for the gun to be towed except for short distances. Therefore, like one of the pics above, in action the gun would be on the ground (or below it) and the truck would look much like any other Morris 15 cwt (OK, C8 excepted). The CS8 portee had a slightly higher tilt than the standard GS truck and had gauze panels in it to give more light, but in the desert would not be wearing the tilt. The bodies on the CMP portees were very similar to the Morris C8 bodies, but I know not which came first. They all had a manual winch to haul the gun on board

Has anyone actually seen a photo of the Austin K5 or Bedford QL 3 ton portees actually in action either? They were intended to carry the 6 pdr, but whether the gun was ever fired from the truck is another matter. It could be, as they carried a blast screen over the radiator, but, I guess, only in emergency.

The famous painting of the 2 pdr portee in action shows a CMP portee (30 cwt or 3 ton) which were intended to have the gun fire from the truck (gun facing backwards).

Chris

[Rick W]

David, with regard to the record cards for WD MCC, are you sure Bov. keeps these? I got the record card for my C8 from Deepcut. Or do Bov. keep a more detailed history of the vehicles? Admittedly my record card didnt show much .

[25pdrfg]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Here's the picture. I don't know if it sold, possibly it pops up again at eBay.

Once more this is a Bofors you can see the curve of the shield

[T17E1]

The 2 Pdr. C8 AT Portee was not the Morris CS8. The CS8 was a 4 x 2 vehicle with the 6 cylinder Morris Engine. They were used to tow 2 pdrs. on occasions and also sometimes 2 pdrs. were mounted on the rear load bed (after modification) but with the gun firing backwards. The C8 Portee was “invented” by MCC in January 1940 and a patent was applied for towards the end of February 1940. They were in production during the summer of 1940 but most seem to have been produced in 1941, 42.

The C8 Portee was a heavily modified C8 4x4. It had an uprated E series Morris engine (using a larger induction Manifold) to take the power from 55hp to 70/75hp (as per the FATs), and an open cab for 3 with a 6” gap between the driver and his mate into which was fitted an angle iron support for a winch wheel over the rear bed. The cab was otherwise open but with canvas weather doors and covers. The rear was heavily modified with a heavy duty rear chassis cross member and a rectangular 15 Gal (as opposed to 30 gal for C8GS) fuel tank fitted horizontally into a U channel carry over structure above the rear axle. This structure allowed the 2 pdr gun to be winched over the fuel tank and could well have been designed by Messers Heath and Robinson!). There were two wheel channels from the rear of the chassis to a heavy U channel above the fuel tank (remember this bit!) at 53” centres for the 2 pdr. gun. There were two further longer channels on the rear chassis which could be dropped to allow the gun to run up and would be lifted and stowed when not in use.

The rear body was then built around two side mounted U channels, hinged and braced at the back of the chassis, joined by a front cross member and which could be lifted up and lowered. At the front was another cross member with two rollers which ran inside the side channels and was also equipped with a cast steel wheel beneath. It was attached to a pair of scalloped 2 pdr. wheel channels, which ran back to the heavy duty fuel tank U channel (remember) where they were hinged. Fitted to the chassis, just behind the cab was a purpose built hand winch with two detachable handles and a ½” wire rope. The scalloped front wheel channels each had a hinged prop to hold them up and mounted beside them on each side on an extended cross member were a pair of wheel locks for the gun. Each could be turned 90 degrees (out of the way) when the gun was being winched up and could be ratchetted down over the guns tyres to hold it in place. The ratchet handles are the same as the FAT winch brake.

To load the gun the two rear ramps were dropped to the floor and the wire winch rope was attached to either the 2 pdr. gun axle ring or the tow bar of the truck (I’ll tell you which later on in my project!). The winch was then drawn in using the two handles stowed one on each side of the cab. This caused the wire to run over the winch wheel behind the cab and under the cast roller underneath the heavy cross member. As this tightened, the cross member lifted along with the whole of both sides of the rear bed and the front most scalloped pair of wheel channels. The props were then dropped and the elevated rear of the truck propped up in position. The winch wire was then re-run to the gun axle ring and the winch drew the gun, facing forwards, up the rear ramps over the fixed ramps over the fuel tank (that big U channel again) and then onto the front scalloped ramps. The gun trail was then attached to a lock mechanism beside the tow hook, the wire re attached to lift the rear body, the props folded and the body dropped back into the low normal position. The gun wheel locks were then turned back 90 degrees and ratchetted down to hold the gun wheel in what were now a pair of deeply scalloped wheel wells. This and the rear trail support stopped the gun moving during firing. The barrel protruded into the driver’s area and a pair of tubular supports stopped the gun crew traversing the gun to bash the drivers head. Gun loaded and you could now drive around the battlefield irritating German Tanks. They went to the middle east and the desert in 1941 and 2 and I believe some may have continued on into Italy but I am not sure of this. By this time the 2 pdr. was obsolete against German armour and so they were given (sold?) to the NZ and Aussie troops who took them home. Some went to the Far East where the Japanese armour was still easily defeated by the 2 pdr. The remainder ended up back in the UK. The best being converted to 17 Pdr. “Portees”. This was achieved by removing the winch and winch wheels, moving the fuel tank, bolting the lifting rear bed portion down and installing a wooden floor, seats, ammunition stowage and lastly widening the cab in a real “cut and shut: job to accommodate an extra crew member beside the driver. They then continued to tow 17 Pdr. until the end of the war. MKII carriage 17 Pdrs. had Warner electric trailer brakes fitted and the Portees pulling them were fitted with a brake activating handle beside the steering column and a trailer power connector and cable.

I have a 17 Pdr. “Portee” and 17 Pdr. and have driven the combination for many miles including two Arnhem trips. It is an able combination and far better balanced and easier to deploy than history records. I can only speak for myself but I have also always found the C8 to be very reliable which is not the recorded verdict of the airborne users. Once I have finished rebuilding my 2 Pdr. Portee I will let you know how easy and practical it is to use. I don’t know how many Morris C8 Portees still exist but I only know of two in the UK. The best identifier is the up across and down mudguards and or a rectangular fuel tank. There must be more out there.