Need help: M151a2 CAF Europe 74-22375

Gaspare · #1 13-08-11, 20:06

Hallo gents,

I own a former CAF Europe M151a2
she spots on front bumper number 74-22375 and HORNET (dot) CAF, rear bumper 74-22375 and Canada Flag, inside the hood HORNET-CAF and a round sticker on he windshield silver with the red maple leaf and written HORNET CAF all these are surely original.
So I suppose that she served in Baden Soellinghen.
Anyone knows anything about my car?

Thank you for the help!

Gaspare · #2 13-08-11, 20:20

OK OK,

I know the camo pattern is absolutely wrong

,

that's why I am searching original pics and infos on my baby !
(

I have already downloaded the restoration pics of this forum to fix this

)

maple_leaf_eh · #3 13-08-11, 21:43

Gaspare:

Welcome aboard! The sticker is something from the Air Force, but the name and numbers are not necessarily correct. My brother was an airforce technician on CF18 fighters when they were new, and they called themselves Hornet Handlers. I don't know what ground vehicles the Air Force had, or even if they had Standard Military Pattern field vehicles.

What serial numbers are on the data plates?

chris vickery · #4 13-08-11, 23:00

Perhaps someone's artistic creation?

Scott Bentley · #5 14-08-11, 01:24

Hi,

Definitely a Canadian M151A2 judging by some of the mods.

The CFR you have actually looks legit. I recall from the DND Database, that there were a bunch of CFRs at the end that were not the usual 74-09*** series.

Sadly, I don't have access to the Database right now as I have moved offices yet again. Once I do, i'll pull up the Unit info.

In the mean time, post up the Serial Number from the Dataplate on the dash. That can be used to check the validity of the CFR and then more importantly, lead to the Unit history.

Scotty

Scott Bentley · #6 14-08-11, 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris vickery

Perhaps someone's artistic creation?

Although the Stickers look quite legit, the stencils are a bit strange....

Gaspare · #7 14-08-11, 19:03

Thank you for the comments,

I'll check the data plates and I will tell you more.

in the while i have a couple more question

:

First, I stolen this pic from the net, can you help me to locate where to look for this kind of label in the car?

Second: long time ago i have seen some pics from (if I remember well) a Canadian Museum showing a CDN M151a2 (between many others) on display with what was defined as "a canadian ingenuity winch" made with two cylinders applied to the rear wheels and a rope.

Anyone can help me to locate the museum and tell me if it was an official standard CDN device/transformation (also drawings and instruction would be fantastic informations).

I thank all you in advance for your invaluable help.

Scott Bentley · #8 14-08-11, 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaspare

Thank you for the comments,

I'll check the data plates and I will tell you more.

in the while i have a couple more question

:

First, I stolen this pic from the net, can you help me to locate where to look for this kind of label in the car?

Second: long time ago i have seen some pics from (if I remember well) a Canadian Museum showing a CDN M151a2 (between many others) on display with what was defined as "a canadian ingenuity winch" made with two cylinders applied to the rear wheels and a rope.

Anyone can help me to locate the museum and tell me if it was an official standard CDN device/transformation (also drawings and instruction would be fantastic informations).

I thank all you in advance for your invaluable help.

All of the Canadian M151A2's were build by American General with bodies produced in house. They also all had Emissions Controlled Engine/Fuel Systems. The body tag in the photo you attached won't be found on your A2. Those were unique to Ford/Willys/Kaiser built M151/M151A1 and early Ford A2s. There was an AMG applied foil body tag behind the fuel lines along the transmission tunnel next to the drivers ankle. I have never found one on any of the tubs that passed through my hands. The only time i've seen them is on a replacement body where there was no Serial Number Dataplate. Regardless, the numbers on the foil tag aren't actually the same as the Mfg Serial/VIN Number on the Dash Dataplate, but rather some internal control number for AMG. Although the "Muttguru" in England can tell you lots of info with a Budd or Freuhauf Body Tag, i'm not sure he can do the same with the AMG number. At best, the production date, as the Canadian Forces did not use Hood Numbers like the US on the M151A2. So, when it comes to an AMG M151A2, the Serial Number on the Dash Dataplate is crucial to determine correct history. If the original is gone (and most were removed and destroyed), then the only hope is that the CFR is painted on the body somewhere or a Tac Sign is visible.

The "Unstuckers" are a legitimate tool for the 1/4 ton "Jeeps". They can be found for sale from time to time around here.

rob love · #9 14-08-11, 21:54

From another thread on the M151A2s it was revealed that there are a block of numbers that start with 22350 to 22519, so your CFR falls into that block.

Your M151A2 looks very nice. Is it a reweld or uncut?

Gaspare · #10 15-08-11, 14:07

Here I am,
Thank you for the further informations,

I add the following serials:
Dashboard serial,
Engine serial,
Ziebart tag serial.....

I can guess that the engine is not the original one, same concern about the windshield but I hope the dash is the original one,
for the moment i didn't find more codes or Tac Signs.

These M151a2 were cut and welded taking care of rejoining the matching bumpers serials from Perini of Riva del Garda.

I have reports that the non matching numbers have been sold painted USARMY olive green or USARMY/USMC camo colors,

other matching serials have been repainted from the owners as USA M151

being difficult to find original CDN uniforms.

I am proud to have a CDN one!

Gaspare · #11 15-08-11, 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob love

From another thread on the M151A2s it was revealed that there are a block of numbers that start with 22350 to 22519, so your CFR falls into that block.

Your M151A2 looks very nice. Is it a reweld or uncut?

Thank you very much Rob, it is a reweld one.

Gaspare · #12 15-08-11, 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by armybuck041

All of the Canadian M151A2's were build by American General with bodies produced in house. They also all had Emissions Controlled Engine/Fuel Systems. The body tag in the photo you attached won't be found on your A2. Those were unique to Ford/Willys/Kaiser built M151/M151A1 and early Ford A2s. There was an AMG applied foil body tag behind the fuel lines along the transmission tunnel next to the drivers ankle. I have never found one on any of the tubs that passed through my hands. The only time i've seen them is on a replacement body where there was no Serial Number Dataplate. Regardless, the numbers on the foil tag aren't actually the same as the Mfg Serial/VIN Number on the Dash Dataplate, but rather some internal control number for AMG. Although the "Muttguru" in England can tell you lots of info with a Budd or Freuhauf Body Tag, i'm not sure he can do the same with the AMG number. At best, the production date, as the Canadian Forces did not use Hood Numbers like the US on the M151A2. So, when it comes to an AMG M151A2, the Serial Number on the Dash Dataplate is crucial to determine correct history. If the original is gone (and most were removed and destroyed), then the only hope is that the CFR is painted on the body somewhere or a Tac Sign is visible.

The "Unstuckers" are a legitimate tool for the 1/4 ton "Jeeps". They can be found for sale from time to time around here.

that's why i didn't find it anywhere on my one,

.
about the"Unstuckers", do you mean the UN stickers? (may be obvious but i am Italian and my english may be limited....

)

rob love · #13 15-08-11, 15:40

The unstuckers are a cheap version of a winch that the Canadian forces tried out. The majority of the Canadian M151A2s had a plate on the hubs of each rear wheel. If you got stuck, you then attached two spools of rope to these plates and attached another rope from them to your anchor.
I never saw the rope spools when the M151A2s were in service, although there were plenty kicking around in the Iltis era. Can't say as I have ever talked to anyone who actually hooked one up and recovered themselves. One could call the unstuckers either a piece of liberal era canadiana, or else you could call them a joke.

Gaspare · #14 15-08-11, 15:41

This is what the winch i mentioned looks like:

Gaspare · #15 15-08-11, 16:39

and so these are the unstuck......

Scott Bentley · #16 16-08-11, 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaspare

Here I am,
Thank you for the further informations,

I add the following serials:
Dashboard serial,
Engine serial,
Ziebart tag serial.....

I can guess that the engine is not the original one, same concern about the windshield but I hope the dash is the original one,
for the moment i didn't find more codes or Tac Signs.

These M151a2 were cut and welded taking care of rejoining the matching bumpers serials from Perini of Riva del Garda.

I have reports that the non matching numbers have been sold painted USARMY olive green or USARMY/USMC camo colors,

other matching serials have been repainted from the owners as USA M151

being difficult to find original CDN uniforms.

I am proud to have a CDN one!

There you go... The Serial Number is in good order and in the right range to be original. This is the number I can run to verify the original CFR and gather the unit history.

The Ziebart Decal is also a lucky thing to have. In fact, if you wouldn't mind, could you snap a photo that shows the entire tag? I'm debating getting a decal made up for mine but have been unable to find a decent one to copy.

Thanks for posting up the photos.

Scotty

Scott Bentley · #17 16-08-11, 03:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaspare

This is what the winch i mentioned looks like:

Yup, those are the "unstuckers". I wouldn't mind at least the flanges if anyone is sitting on a pair.

maple_leaf_eh · #18 16-08-11, 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaspare

...

Ziebart tag serial

...

In a damp climate, rust is a big concern. Ziebart is a company that got started spraying oily sticky rustproofing compound on cars and trucks. My grandfather's garage would undercoat a car for a few hundred dollars in the 1960's, which easily extended the life of the body by 5 or 6 years. (But his top mechanics also died of cancer from the compounds or the cleaners

.) I don't know what the Forces did to Jeeps for undercoating, but likely each one went through the local Ziebart shop for spraying at some stage in the maintenance cycle.

rob love · #19 16-08-11, 04:04

The Ziebart was applied to the M151A2s around 1980. I know this because some of the last ones they did were the training aids in the school. Made for messy training....that stuff did not wash off with soap. Solvent worked pretty good though.

Scotty: I may be able to pull a Ziebart decal off one of my many spare windshields when I get a chance. It won't be pristine, but it should be a good sample.

I think the unstucker plates are the same as the Iltis. It was just the nuts that were different to adapt to the different hubs. I have spare plates, and likely the drums too, but I may not have many spare nuts for them, as I need them to modify for my 5/4 ton.

Gaspare · #20 16-08-11, 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by armybuck041

There you go... The Serial Number is in good order and in the right range to be original. This is the number I can run to verify the original CFR and gather the unit history.

The Ziebart Decal is also a lucky thing to have. In fact, if you wouldn't mind, could you snap a photo that shows the entire tag? I'm debating getting a decal made up for mine but have been unable to find a decent one to copy.

Thanks for posting up the photos.

Scotty

Thank you Scotty i hope to find out more about my baby,
the Ziebart certification is not a decal but a label, I'll shot and post some pics for you tomorrow

(actually i am at work 'till 11pm)

Scott Bentley · #21 16-08-11, 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob love

Scotty: I may be able to pull a Ziebart decal off one of my many spare windshields when I get a chance. It won't be pristine, but it should be a good sample.
I think the unstucker plates are the same as the Iltis. It was just the nuts that were different to adapt to the different hubs. I have spare plates, and likely the drums too, but I may not have many spare nuts for them, as I need them to modify for my 5/4 ton.

Rob, do you drink Scotch?

Gaspare · #22 17-08-11, 20:10

Hallo again,
here are some Ziebart tag pics,

do you prefer measures in centimeters or inches?

Ed Storey · #23 17-08-11, 23:42

While on the boardwalk in KAF in May, I saw Rob drink a milkshake. It might have been butterscotch....

ED

Scott Bentley · #24 17-08-11, 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Storey

While on the boardwalk in KAF in May, I saw Rob drink a milkshake. It might have been butterscotch....

ED

Well this would be an especially helpful bit of Int.

Damn near every Mechanic I "Horse-Trade" with lately drinks Beer. Shipping a case of Beer cross country is not economically viable. Scotch on the other hand.... I need to find Robs poison as I'm currently running a hell of a trade deficit with him. So, maybe a Dairy Queen gift certificate eh?