Cdn 3-colour paint schemes

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi

Does anyone have the pages from the appropriate manual for the 3-colour (Dk Green, Green and Black) NATO paint scheme used on cold-war era Cougar, Grizzly, Husky AVGPs and the Lynx and M113s here in Canada? Without the brown.

When we painted them as a work party for the Regiment back in the early 1980s we were given photocopies from these books/manuals and broken down into to colour teams ....as well as prep teams and tacsign teams! Real Henry Ford production line stuff!

I am looking to find the schemes for each of them, as in the pattern and placement of the colours.

Is the CARF(sp) paint we used translatable to a Federal Standard (FS) Number? I'm looking to paint some vehs but not with CARF.

Any pointers appreciated.

Thanks.

regards
Darrell

[rob love]

There were two places to look for the paint schemes. One of them was in the FMC orders. But that is something you don't find laying around anymore.

The other source is more likely. You want CFP318-9 camouflage and concealment. The current number is something like b-gl-318-009/001. All the charts are in the back of that manual. You might have to hunt a bit to find a copy with the right era of vehicles.

I am unfamiliar with the CARF term.....how does that differ from CARC? Anyway, for the older cam patterns I use gillespie FS33070 for the olive green, the 34094 383 CARC green substitute for the flat green, and tremclad black for the black. The 383 looks a little odd when first painted, but after a week or so it tones down and looks alright.

The 33070 is not a perfect match, but the original paint started changing color the day after it was painted, and went through a rainbow of hues on it's way to a bluish colour after a couple years. I find it gives a decent contrast to the 383 green.

[302Trooper]

Darrell I have the camo manual from the 1970's that I got from 2 Guns back in 1982. I will send you a pdf tomorrow. send me the email you want to receive it at Brother.

Dave

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi fellas

Rob, that's really good info on the name and FS numbers. I want to use a commercial water soluable exterior latex and have had good success with that in the past (Petawawa Centurion in FGH colours). I will have a boo for those manuals in Documentum as well. Not very likely there will be older vehicles in the newer copy but I'll check. If not, I'll need to find the actual older manual unless.....Dave?

Sorry, we called it CARF and not the obviously correct CARC!

Dave, that's awesome. I'll pm you my work address as this will be done for the G1 here.

Big help there guys and many thanks.

regards
Darrell

[Scott Bentley]

Darryl,

I was able to find a pdf of that pub mentioned earlier with the hand drawn cam patterns in the annexes. If you haven't found it already, i'll start digging around to see where I placed it. It had all the old stuff like the Lynx, 113s, 5/4 etc.

[Scott Bentley]

FWIW, I went with Gillespie 34087 for the OD on mine, and as Rob mentioned 383 Green for the Flat Green. I've heard of guys adding talc to the 383 CARC substitute from Gillespie to dull it down a bit. Not perfect, but certainly passable.

[Jon Skagfeld]

Darryl:

CARC=Chemically Applied Reactive Paint.

Usually to give foreknowledge and warning to body shop techs.

[Jon Skagfeld]

Darryl: On my last post the final "C" is Coating vice Paint.

My error.

[rob love]

Chemical Agent Resistant Coating was the answer to the acronym in my circles. The secret killer agent in them is just plain old isocyanates, found in most automotive paints back in the day. We had to take a lot of precautions when spraying it, and just as many when stripping it. A lot of those precautions have been relieved now that they have the same paint in a water based formula.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi

Scot, thanks for the offer but Dave has hooked me up with the requisite pdf pages.

Jon and Rob, all good data and I thank you as well. Funny how we never had any warnings about how bad CARC is during the Regt'l Paint Parties back in the 80's!! Nowadays, you say CARC on Base and the civvies demand a raise and the Mat Techs just start running!!!!

In the "assemble the plan" phase now as we won't launch on actual painting until all the snow snakes go into summer hibernation. No sense risking the "help"!!

kind regards
Darrell

[rob love]

Generally we did not use CARC in the 80s. It did not come into the Cdn system until the very late 80s/ almost the 90s. Even then, the deliveries were held back as the awareness to the health hazards came out. The Iltis may have been painted with a form of CARC when it was introduced, but any paint we put on was just the normal IRR stuff. Basically, if you were adding a hardener to the paint, then you were likely dealing with CARC.

I was discussing the CARC hazards with a pre-med tech recently, and according to her, the isocyanates were only released in the presence of flame, so there was not a great risk in sanding or chipping the old paint. This differred from the warnings we were given in the mid 90s, so somewhere in the middle, perhaps the truth lies. Personally I stay away from the stuff. Life is too short to experiment. But then again I guess I am one of those civvys.

You could not brush the CARC on as it would be too thick and crack. It was only sprayed, and on the plus side it was a tough as nails.

[chris vickery]

Rob, in the circles I travel, industrial painting usng the same type of coating had inherrent risk while spraying as well.
Isocyanates are easily inhaled as well as absorbed through the unprotected skin and mucous membranes.
Guys who used to piant with this stuff had to take regular blood testing to monitor exposure levels.

[rob love]

Yes Chris, you are obviously right. However I did not include that possibility since apparently the new CARC is not as bad as the old CARC, and stocks of the old CARC should be long gone. At this time, in the military, the primary hazard would seem to be in the way the paint is removed from the equipment painted with the old stuff. Burning the paint off would be not recommended. This especially comes into play if one was cutting a vehicle coated in CARC. I recently had to cut some welds on a static vehicle. Fortunately it was outdoors and there was a nice breeze to my back so I did not have to take any precautions beyond the norm.

When I was working in Afghanistan, there was a section of guys with the company I was with who only did mods to the vehicles. They had been given no special instructions about the CARC paint which I was a little surprised about. They were constantly grinding and cutting into the hulls. As contractors, there would be no follow up as to the health effects.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi

Obviously, as just a "user" of armoured vehicles, I was/am somewhat ignorant of the paint we used. I am thinking early/middle 80's and seem to recall (which occasionally happens to me) it was in fact Infra-Red Reflective paint and not CARC.

Rob, when you say "normal IRR", what does that mean? What type of paint was it and can I still get it through the system?

Barring that, is the Gillespie paint suitable to replicate IRR, d'ya think?

regards
Darrell

[rob love]

Prior to the IRR paint, we used an Alkyd Enamel I believe. The NSNs were in the 8010-21-5XX-XXXX range. Around 1979 or so, the new paint, with an NSN of around 8010-21-880-9628,29,30 and 50 replaced the older paint. This was the IRR, again an enamel. I have an old EME journal that discusses the development of the paint with it's designer. Apparently, it mimics the reflectiveness of leaves to give it it's IR reflective qualities.

Around 1990, there were intiially NSNs issued for the CARC, which was soon replaced with US CARC I believe. If you google, you will find that the US CARC has now developed into a water based paint. The CARCs included a hardener which seemed to be the main health hazard. It was also as tough as nails. Applied properly, even paint stripper had difficulty removing it.

I guess when I say "normal" IRR, I am merely referring to the paint which was the most common to my service career. These days I guess you would refer to CARC as the normal army paint.

The older numbers are now obsolete. All military equipment is to be painted with CARC.

The Gillespir paint is suitable to replace the IRR or even the older enamel paints. Some of the colours are not a perfect match, but with a little bit of sunlight and dust, they fullfill the role. I normally pick mine up at the MVPA conventions when I go down, but I have also ordered pallets of it from RAPCO in texas which I would have delivered to just on the other side of the US?CAN border. By the time I got it across the border, it added up to around $47 a gallon, although with the depressed dollar right now I suspect the price will be higher.

I will talk to the Rapco guy this year to see if it's possible he could get Gillespie to mix up the Cdn colours, although I am unsure that the sales to Canada would warrant it.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Rob

You're a wealth of great info. Thank you.

You're like me and remember the IRR (well, I do now) as normal then. CARC, even water based, isn't my first choice.

I'm going to try my Sales Reps at work and see what they can do with a more workable paint for outdoor use. Maybe one of them is tied into Gillespie. I could be buying pallets!

kind regards
Darrell

[rob love]

If this if for a NPF type project, I would suggest just buying the paint from Rapco, and having it shipped to somewhere in Houlton Maine, which by map does not seem that far away. Rapco will send it by UPS, and if you buy 1 gallon or 20 gallons, the hazmat charge is just the same.

I have always just paid for purchases like this on my CC, then submitted the bill for reimbursement through NPF. I give them the bill along with the snippet from my online Credit card statement, as well as the Canada Customs bill (if they even charge the taxes....often if it's for the museum they will only charge the GST), and NPF always pays back to the penny.

There are hardeners you can add to the Gillespie paint to make it tougher if the vehicles you are painting are to be left outside. But in general, I just spray it on thick and it is reasonable durable once it hardens in a week or two. I use Xylene for the reducer. The stuff dries in 15 minutes, just like the old army paints.

[Darrell Zinck]

Hi Rob

Not really an NPF thing but more a Base Task using DHH grant monies. I have to adhere to the Financial Administration Act protocols since it's still Crown money.

Fortunately I have Vendor Reps here in my Army Job I deal with and buy under the FAA with them a lot, so I'm very familiar with it all.

The issue is finding a supplier. Gillespie is a no go since I cannot expect to be able to cross the border with 1000 Gallons of paint that may not meet our Customs requirements.

Therefore I met with the regional rep for Rust-oleum Canada today and they are pretty sure they can provide my needs. I gave them a list of FS colours I'll need for x15 vehicles and they will let me know in very short order if they can produce the colours I need in their product.

If this gels up and I get what I need, I'll provide their numbers to the Forum as an FYI.

For now, based on past experiences in Pet, Glidden Paints has the following paint codes that correspond to FS codes:

FS34077 (Olive Green)=7733 Dark Hunter Green
FS36515 (Grey)=7786 Smokey Grey)
FS30108 (Brown)=7775 (Leather Brown) or 214085 (Flat Brown)
FS33446 (Stone)=7771 (sand) or 7755 (Light Olive)

regards
Darrell