Photos of an old abused veteran

[Lionelgee]

Hello Everyone,

Here are some more photos of trucks from my recent trip. Enjoy

Without starting another thread ... could anyone post a couple of photos of the front and side of a CMP I have heard of called a Monkey Face and similar photos showing a late war model of the CMP so I can work out how the shape changed.

Please excuse my lack of knowledge as I am new to CMP's. Until recently I used to walk past these trucks in the yard. It must have something to do with bouncing around the inside of a blitz cab for hours when I was 15 years old and was riding shotgun in a volunteer bushfire brigade blitz tanker truck. Driving cross country chasing fires and not having time to pick a smooth track was lots of fun at the time however I remember being more than wee bit sore and sorry after a couple of days of the continued rough treatment. There was also a big Studebaker 6x6 tanker too – I wonder what happened to them?

Then I remembered a couple of days ago something else. When I was a kid in primary school there used to be a metal fabrication yard at the back boundary fence of the school. There was a worn out blitz crane truck parked amongst the reject fabrications and I used spend hours playing in it after school. About the only thing left in the cab was the steering wheel and a gearstick assembly.

Gee can Blitz trucks lay dormant in the blood for years and then jump out and grab you by the throat in your mid 40's?

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

G'day Cliff

I tried to get the five photos attached to the last message, Cliff - I promiise I did. However, a database error sprung up on MLU and I had to try again. It was not me - it was the technology .... honest

Cliff identifed the truck for me as Chev 13 cab, 15cwt (3/4 ton) 101 inch Wheel Base model - 2 wheel drive version - thanks Cliff.

Until then I never knew the CMPs came as such a small truck - I thought someone had done a cut and shut job on it when I first saw the truck-ette.

Now one photo for each finger on my hand - that must be five - I'll just check I will see if all those years of edumacation has paid off

Regards
Lionel

[Howard]

Originally Posted by Lionelgee

...Without starting another thread ... could anyone post a couple of photos of the front and side of a CMP I have heard of called a Monkey Face and similar photos showing a late war model of the CMP so I can work out how the shape changed....
Kind Regards
Lionel

G'Day Lionel,
Have a look at Keith Webb's web site Start Here as there are examples of all models. I realy don't like the term 'monkey face', but I know I am not going to be able toi stamp out almost 70 years of reference in a hurry!
The Cab 11 and 12 are what is refered to as a monkey face. Two excellent examples HERE and HERE
Spend a bit of time on Keith's Old CMP site (first link) and you should get the picture of the differences.
Of course if you need any clarification, just ask!
HH

[Keith Webb]

It was built as a C15 Wireless Signals, WO73 model with a full steel integrated box van body.

Bit like this example seen in the 1970s:



Or this restored example:

Originally Posted by Lionelgee

G'day Cliff

I tried to get the five photos attached to the last message, Cliff - I promiise I did. However, a database error sprung up on MLU and I had to try again. It was not me - it was the technology .... honest

Cliff identifed the truck for me as Chev 13 cab, 15cwt (3/4 ton) 101 inch Wheel Base model - 2 wheel drive version - thanks Cliff.

Until then I never knew the CMPs came as such a small truck - I thought someone had done a cut and shut job on it when I first saw the truck-ette.

Now one photo for each finger on my hand - that must be five - I'll just check I will see if all those years of edumacation has paid off

Regards
Lionel

[cliff]

below are 2 photos (AT-134 & AT-135) of an 11 cab Ford. These were the first of the CMP's. One piece grill and a small flat removeable panel on top in front of the windscreen to gain access to the motor. The third photo (AT-421) is of a 12 cab the second model of CMP. These had a split grill and a bonnet that lifted gaining access to the motor. Photos are all from Servicepublications factory photos CD which I recently purchased and is well worth the money to get.

[Keith Webb]

Here's a wartime image of a bogged one which is also missing it's roof:

[Keith Webb]

This is my F60L cab 12:

[Lionelgee]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

This is my F60L cab 12:

G'day thanks for the information. Since the last post I went for a bit of a search and found this site by Colin MacGregor Stevens. It mentions the following... it also has some links with a photo of a spare tyre carrier and trays of trucks...

http://bcoy1cpb.pacdat.net/cmp_canad...ry_pattern.htm

Now Howard, Keith and Cliff is the information on the above internet site actually accurate? There seems to be a lot of conflicting stuff in CMP land.

So how about this for a rule of thumb ....headlights which are bolted to the cowl = that M-face word and integrated headlights are the later models. I also like the description of Series 13 trucks "much roomer inside..."
Very nice truck Keith.

Howard thanks to the link to Keith's CMP site.

A flying CMP is a great photo Cliff - bet you they regretted it when they landed!

Kind Regards
Lionel

IDENTIFYING CMP MODELS
Data plates are the first thing to look for. One early models they are often on the engine cover inside the cab. On late models they are usually on top of the dash over the instruments on Chevrolets, and on the driver's door inside near the top on Fords.

If data plates are missing, Fords have year marked on 'back' of pintle hook. One can see it by climbing under the truck, and looking at the rear of the pintle hook. There is a circular hole in the mounting plates and one can usually see "FM Co 43" for example (as I recall, it is some years since I have looked). This example would be Ford Motor Company 1943.

Early models:
Cab 11 (1940 model) - Fixed windshield, no roof hatch, small hinged panel to access engine from outside. Suicide doors (hinged at back). Cramped cab. Headlights standing separate and on fenders (giving them the nickname "Monkey Face" down in southern regions of the world.
Cab 12 (1941 model)- The Cab 12 is basically the same as Cab 11 but had minor modifications done in response apparently to user feedback (aka complaints), especially from the North African desert. As per Cab 11 but windshield opens a few inches as a single unit, some models have a roof hatch. Large hooks on doors so they can be propped open about 6". "Alligator hood" - better engine access. Vents incorporated on each side of radiator grill to provide moving (not necessarily cooler!) air to the cab when driving.
Cab 13 (1942-1945 model)- Total design change. Much roomier. Reverse slope windshield, doors hinged at front, headlights buried inside cowl. Some later models (1944-5) had round roof 'hatch' of canvas for observer. Early models of Chevs had "cluster" instruments and later models had separate round instruments.

8 Cwt (1/2 ton) - Tires 9.00x13 or 9.25x16 on HU 4x4 models. 101" WB. No step under door to get into cab.
15 Cwt (3/4 ton) - Tires 9.00x16. 101" wheelbase.
30 Cwt - 10.50x16 tires. 134" WB
60 Cwt (3 ton) - 10.50x20 tires. 134" or 158" WB

"Z" was letter code at beginning of DND or WD number painted on the door. This was for trucks 8 Cwt or 15 Cwt. "L" was for Lorry which was the category for 3 Ton (60 Cwt). There are many other letter prefix codes but those are the most common.

[cliff]

Originally Posted by Lionelgee

G'day thanks for the information. Since the last post I went for a bit of a search and found this site by Colin MacGregor Stevens.
Now Howard, Keith and Cliff is the information on the above internet site actually accurate? There seems to be a lot of conflicting stuff in CMP land.

Colins site is accurate but remember it is for CANADIAN made vehicles not AUSTRALIAN Assembled one's

you have just as much confusion between different countries vehicles with CMP's as you do with the MCP type vehicles if not more but apart from cab differences (the Aussie assembled 13 cabs, both Chev & Ford had differences to the Canadian production ones) and rear bodies the mechanicals and chassis were mainly the same. Almost all the 11/12 cab models were fully Canadian made and only the 13 cab models had local content to my knowledge but Keith & others will probably prove me wrong.

So how about this for a rule of thumb ....headlights which are bolted to the cowl = that M-face word and integrated headlights are the later models.

alter to read "seperate headlights mounted on the mudguards = the early cab 11/12 (monkey face) and intergrated headlights are the later cab 13.

A flying CMP is a great photo Cliff - bet you they regretted it when they landed!

this photo would have been taken while the vehicles were being tested at the factory I would think.

[zemsi]

... here you can see a Cab 11 (C30 from 1940), Cab 12 (F60 from 1941) and Cab 13 (F15A) for comparison.

Max knows where you'll find them

Greetings
Chris

[Tony Smith]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

This is my F60L cab 12:

Keith, you know the forum rules. This should be posted in the "For Sale or Trade Forum" section.

[Lionelgee]

Originally Posted by zemsi

... here you can see a Cab 11 (C30 from 1940), Cab 12 (F60 from 1941) and Cab 13 (F15A) for comparison.

Max knows where you'll find them

Greetings
Chris

G'day Chris, Thank you for the photos with all those trucks together in it - someone is a lucky bugger!

Thanks Cliff for the thorough information and Tony. Yes there is a bit of advertising going on for Keith's fine specimen of a truck isn't there !

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

This is my F60L cab 12:

Hello ALl,

Having a quick look again at Keith's truck... it is pretty hard to miss it on the page... and the condition of the tyres raises a question or two or maybe three. How hard is it to get tyres for these trucks in Australia are they readily available or from limited suppliers and cost the earth? What would you pay for a new one?

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Tony Smith]

Tyres in that size (or near enough) are much more readily available than in the 16 inch range.

The original size was 10.50-20, and there is a huge variety of commercial truck patterns available in 10.00-20 and 11.00-20 to choose from. A military tread is available in 11.00-20 (MRF brand is $320), but it is also common to see 12.00-20s fitted as these are available cheaply from Defence Auctions ( as low as $20 per tyre) as removed from ACCOs and Unimogs.

[cliff]

Originally Posted by Lionelgee

G'day Chris, Thank you for the photos with all those trucks together in it - someone is a lucky bugger!

Kind Regards
Lionel

Yes Max is a lucky bugger isn't he

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

Tonight I did a google image search of Cab 13 CMP and I came across a site which mentioned that there were more series of cabs after the Cab 13. From this MLU site I have learnt about a 11-12 & 13. Also I found a quote which posted earlier on this thread towards the top of the page. In the article it does say Cab 13 (1942-1945 model) ... some later models (1944-5) had round roof 'hatch' of canvas for observer. This article was written overseas so were models made in Australia after Cab 13 as things happened differently here? How were the series made after Cab 13 different from teach other

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Keith Webb]

Originally Posted by Lionelgee

Hello All,

I did a google image search of Cab 13 CMP and I came across a site which mentioned that there were more series of cabs after the Cab 13. From this MLU site I have learnt about a 11-12 & 13. If there were series of cabs after 13 what years were they manufactured and how were they each different from the 13?

Kind Regards
Lionel

In fact it went right up to 43 but there was nothing in between. The cab 43 was built as a roofless wide version to carry a bofors gun crew.

There were also many detail differences between the first 1942 model cab 13s and the final version.

[Lionelgee]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

In fact it went right up to 43 but there was nothing in between. The cab 43 was built as a roofless wide version to carry a bofors gun crew.

There were also many detail differences between the first 1942 model cab 13s and the final version.

Thanks Keith

I remember someone on another thread directed someone to stay with Fords as Chevy's were too complex. Well it seems CMP land is just as complex. I went to your site Keith before posting my last message and I could only see cab 13 as the highest number cab - of course I could have been looking on the wrong part of your site.

Also someone sent an image from a CMP Shop Manual and it featured lines and bubbles leading to different parts of the truck the photograph was taken from. Has anyone done a similar thing for example the great photos of Max's trucks and drawn arrows on the photo saying note the differences between the headlights on the two trucks? The Cab 11 has lights mounted on the mudguards and the Cab 13 has the headlights integrated into the mudguards. With information like this newbies could learn a lot of things and no ask so many questions. There are those books by Dr Grigg or spelt something similar which people have referred to on MLU however I have not seen one. However has anyone written an Australian New Zealand CMP book showing them and the changes between series from Cab 11 to OMG Cab 43?

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Keith, does your CMP DVD have a commentary which points out differences between trucks or do you have to work it out by just looking at the DVD?

Kind Regards
Lionel

[cliff]

Originally Posted by Lionelgee

Hello All,

Tonight I did a google image search of Cab 13 CMP and I came across a site which mentioned that there were more series of cabs after the Cab 13. From this MLU site I have learnt about a 11-12 & 13. Also I found a quote which posted earlier on this thread towards the top of the page. In the article it does say Cab 13 (1942-1945 model) ... some later models (1944-5) had round roof 'hatch' of canvas for observer. This article was written overseas so were models made in Australia after Cab 13 as things happened differently here? How were the series made after Cab 13 different from teach other

Kind Regards
Lionel

I thought I'd confuse the issue a bit further for you Lionel by saying there was a third maker of CMP and that was Chrysler Canada who made at least one Dodge CMP prototype. I have only ever seen one photo of it and so far have no data on it apart from a few details.

[Keith Webb]

Originally Posted by Lionelgee

Keith, does your CMP DVD have a commentary which points out differences between trucks or do you have to work it out by just looking at the DVD?

Kind Regards
Lionel

No, the DVD is mostly about the 2002 Corowa event with a few side trips. Mike Cecil of the AWM does give a good history of the CMP in Australian use though.

And as I haven't yet finished the 2009 DVD yet I may take that on board and do a complete rundown on how the early and late cabs vary, also how the Australian Chev cab was completely built here and how it differs from the Canadian version.

But don't let that stop you buying the first DVD - there's a lot of CMP action in it including some material from Canada.

As for the site, I don't have anything on the 43 as it wasn't used here and I don't have pics.

Cliff is right, Dodge did make a prototype cab 13 using what looks to be a Ford cab.

There is also a shot in Bill Gregg's book with a cab 13 with all three manufacturer's badges on the grille.

[cliff]

I think the photo below is of the 43 cab. Whole unit was known as an F60B - the B standing for bofers. Not used by Australia.

Two other models not mentioned yet in the CMP lineup for you Lionel is the C60X, a 6X6 chev version and the F60H a 6X4 version with a lazy non driven extra axle at the rear. The C60X had a 13 cab on it and was used here in Australia but the F60H is not known to have made it to Australia and the photos I have seen show it with an 11 and 12 cab fitted.

[Keith Webb]

Originally Posted by cliff

I think the photo below is of the 43 cab. Whole unit was known as an F60B - the B standing for bofers. Not used by Australia.

Two other models not mentioned yet in the CMP lineup for you Lionel is the C60X, a 6X6 chev version and the F60H a 6X4 version with a lazy non driven extra axle at the rear. The C60X had a 13 cab on it and was used here in Australia but the F60H is not known to have made it to Australia and the photos I have seen show it with an 11 and 12 cab fitted.

Yes the F60B was for Bofors. Another obscure Ford was the F60T, a 115" wheelbase tractor for trailers.

The F60H appeared with a cab 13 as well as can be seen on page 248 and 249 of Bart Vanderveen's excellent 'Observers fighting vehicles directory' as both a Breakdown version and Folding Boat Equipment.
Another oddity quoted by Bart on page 249 was a 'Truck, 3-ton APT w/winch GM/Chrysler' fitted with a Chrysler 8 cylinder engine, 5 pilot models built including FAT of which there is a picture available. The engine was quoted as a 323.5 CID sidevalve.
Australia also produced an interesting one-off experiment when we created a half track based on a C60S and carrier components. It was not a success.

[Lionelgee]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

Yes the F60B was for Bofors. Another obscure Ford was the F60T, a 115" wheelbase tractor for trailers.

The F60H appeared with a cab 13 as well as can be seen on page 248 and 249 of Bart Vanderveen's excellent 'Observers fighting vehicles directory' as both a Breakdown version and Folding Boat Equipment.
Another oddity quoted by Bart on page 249 was a 'Truck, 3-ton APT w/winch GM/Chrysler' fitted with a Chrysler 8 cylinder engine, 5 pilot models built including FAT of which there is a picture available. The engine was quoted as a 323.5 CID sidevalve.
Australia also produced an interesting one-off experiment when we created a half track based on a C60S and carrier components. It was not a success.

G"Day Cliff and Keith,

This CMP stuff just gets more and more bizarre. Just when I grasp a little of the Cab 11 – 12 & 13 differences I am informed that it went up to series 43. I have picked up from you two blokes and other contributors to MLU that there were variations between nationalities that assembled CMPs. So you could have a generic Cab 13 pattern yet there would be differences between the Canadian versions, and the Australian and the New Zealand version; plus some were assembled in Russia. Also that Ford chassis are longer than Chevrolet chassis. This bit puts the mockers on some article I read which said chassis were fully interchangeable between Chevy and Ford. Also now Cliff adds in the information Dodge had a little foray into CMP land. I do recall that there were prototype models before the series 11 cab so I have not forgotten about that bit on CMPs on MLU.

So to clarify, or confuse the issue further – what series CMP cabs were used the most by ANZAC forces in WWII and you could expect to find sitting in a paddock in Australia today? Cab 11 + Cab 12 + Cab 13 what comes next?

As a further challenge what percentages would you expect to find of these different series cabs in Australia; as in, which would be the rarer ones to find in an Australian paddock today? Forgetting of course the continued clandestine boarder raids that are going on!
Cab 11 = %
Cab 12 = %
Cab 13 = %
Up to Cab whatever series used by Anzacs and found in Australian paddocks

My final thought is none of us are getting any younger and there is such a store of information that blokes like Cliff and Keith and many more very knowledgeable contributors to MLU are carrying around in their heads. It also seems like the Dr Grigg (or spelling like that) was one of the rare types who wrote a book on CMPs. It would be great if there was a definiative ANZAC CMP and to a lessor extent MCP book written here in Australia. Also the youngest CMP which saw in the final days of the war would be 64 years so paddock stock is reaching its use by date very rapidly. Such a book would also be invaluable to people like me who stumbled into Military vechiles by sheer accident.

If I could help any one out whose interested in getting such a book together please let me know. After the end of the year as I want to get my PhD out of the road first.

It still all boils down to one thing... That Mike Kelly bloke has a lot to answer for! It all started with just a simple statement in an email that he sent me - "have a look at your truck and see if there are any army markings on your truck". Oh the loss of innocence by such a simple action. It also meant that I was unleashed on the MLU forum to annoy everyone.

Kind Regards
Lionel

[cliff]

Mate I ain't gonna bother with percentages etc. I leave those sort of things to students and bofins who have a lot of spare time in which to work the buggers out. But....

Rarest of the rare....Cab 11 either make but especially Ford here in Oz. I saw the remains of a Chev one go through the crusher at Ken Hughes at Kingaroy a few years ago. A lot of people must have looked at it and thought it too far gone or to expensive for what was left of it. Max Hedges here on MLU has a Chev 11 cab at Yass, NSW. New Zealand seems to have the remains of mainly very early Ford 11 cab trucks...the one's with no front vents.

Cab 12 becoming rarer as they are older and had more weak points especially in the windscreen frame then the Cab 13 plus were cramped in the cab department making them harder to drive. Most of these returned home with the troops from North Africa so saw war service in the desert. Most were issued to our troops by the British then 'onsold' to the Australian Government

Cab 13...good one's becoming hard to find but you are more likely to find these as they had more cab room and were easier to drive because of it. Some remained in service till the 1960's with machinery and special type bodies on them. Most were sold direct to Australia and were assembled/built here at several different locations, especially Chevrolet with plants at Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne and Perth to my knowledge.

Hardest piece to get for all models...the original type rear bed/body/decks or useable remains there of.

Rarest complete model of them all the gun tractor versions whether British/ Canadian or Australian in all cab models and either Chev or Ford. Most had the rear boddies cut off to make them flat decks for the carriage of hay etc. Then I'd say the Chev C60X, 6X6 would be ralatively rare as well as not many were purchased. No Ford F60H, 6X4's are known to have come to Australia. Rarer then normal are the vehicles fitted with a genuine CMP winch as only a certain percentage (that bloody word again ) had them. Here in OZ you are more likely to find a 13 cab 15cwt 4X4 or a 60cwt (3 ton) 4X4 long wheel base as these were used as the General Service (GS) trucks and there were more of them originally.

Don't look for an original Dodge prototype CMP because as I said elsewhere only one photo of it has ever appeared and if one of our Canadian members even knew where one was we'd either never be told or they would crow about it forever

Now can you remember all this student Lionel?

[Keith Webb]

The story as far as I know with cab 12s here is we ordered Ford F60L cab 12s and these were assembled in Australia. The Chev cab 12s are the ones which came back from North Africa along with some very interesting other vehicles such as Guys, Fordsons and so on.
The way to pick an Australian delivery Ford cab 12 is ours all had a roof hatch.
The weakness in the cab 12 is not the windscreen frame but a piece of timber which joins the windscreen to the roof which fatigues.
As I have mentioned before what makes the Australian Chevrolet CMP unique is the fact the entire cab was built here.
Kiwi CMPs had locally made roof hatches but were otherwise direct Canadian versions and in most cases the rear bodies were locally made.
The most common cab 11 here (relatively speaking as there are very few) is the C8, although I have seen C30 (Max's) and F60L
As to what can be found in paddocks the most numerous will be cab 13, both Ford and Chev. The most common wheelbase is the 158" with the 101" next common. There were fewer 134" or 160" (C60X).
And depending where you find them you may be surprised at just how good they are, especially in the drier more remote areas of Australia. And there are still lots waiting to be discovered in farmers sheds across the country.
I'm sure I'll think of more soon...

[Keith Webb]

The other thing was to say how good it is to have another CMP devotee.

[Lionelgee]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

The other thing was to say how good it is to have another CMP devotee.

I think it is some form of chronic condition. There should be health warnings posted on this site. Particularly towards the feeble of mind like me; also the infrequency of being able to get to the MLU site makes the addiction worse. Random rewards are supposed to be the most addictive. I will just try and see if I can get on Yes! you beauty! next time

Kind Regards
Lionel