2012 at the Hammond Barn

[Bob Carriere]

Your pictures may help me with more than just the filler pipe.

for example the nose piece is held in place by 2 botls on each side....seems the first bolt hole is not used.... and I have seen the same on other cab 11 pictures.....

Can you tell me how much space/clearance you have between the top of the radiator and the top tank of your radiator....?

Will try to take pics of mine from the same angle as you did to compare.

Thanks again for your help.

Bob

[Alex van de Wetering]

Bob,

Sorry for the delay; somehow I missed your post. Attached are some pics that will hopefully help you.
Measurement from top of radiator to the sheet metal is about an inch....measured from the rear of the radiator straight up to the sheet metal.

As you say "size does matter" so I have included another shot of my filler neck to show it's size.

Alex

[Alex van de Wetering]

or example the nose piece is held in place by 2 botls on each side....seems the first bolt hole is not used.... and I have seen the same on other cab 11 pictures.....

Interesting subject.....yes, mine came from LWDparts with only two bolts on each side. Wartime thing????I guess it must have been easier for maintenance, as the forward-most hole is almost unaccessable as it's behind the thick rad support. No caged nuts here, as far as I know....only square nuts. What about Fords?

Alex

[Bob Carriere]

Thanks for the photos Alex.

It seems that all my photos of various cab 11 ONLY shows the last two bolt holes being used. I agree that trying to install the front one would be almost impossible.... and the cast iton support does NOT have caged nuts.

NOt sure how different the Ford might be... but then Ford had the external radiator cap.....

Will need to review my set of factory pictures to see if the elusive 3rd bolt was ever used.

Did some more sheet metal work on the weekend. Not as much as I had planned because the huge tropical storm that was suppose to soak Ottawa came and went as a big fart..... lots of wind.... so we opted for felling trees that had been damaged in early September.... thereby increasing my stash of firewood and catching up on grounds work before Winter arrives.

It seems I have 2 options.

My front cast steel mount have two sets of holes.... the original which I am using now.... and a second set probably drilled by the previous owner to gain the extra clearance needed to fit the nose.

Using the original holes we fitted the engine cover, hood, bonnet... there is no real name to describe the rectangular cover. Well it fits nicely..... if I use the extra holes that have been drilled I am about 1/4 inch short but gain rad clearance and would still be acceptable.

I am going to try tilting my radiator backwards to the cab to possibly gain that precious 1/4 inch so I can use the "real" bolt holes..... then the est of the sheet metal should fit better...... action word here is "should"....

I have been comparing parts with the cab 12 I have...... cast parts are interchangeable but holes are different ...some tapered for flat screws and at a slightly difference location to allow clearnace for the Alligator nose.... rather confusing.


Stay tuned....

Bob

[Bob Carriere]

Hi Alex

I verified some factgory pictures of early complete and clean cab 11 and 12


All the cab 11 Ford and Chev DO HAVE the 3 bolts installed......

...but remember.... at the factory the whole nose assembly was put together on a separate jig then lowered on the frame which already had the motor and the radiator installed...... so at the factory the front most of the 3 bolts was installed.

I am sure that whenit was serviced in field unit that front bolt disappear as it would be almost impossible to re install wthout caged nuts.

On the cab 12 Chev pictures the rear 2 bolts are replaced by large 5/16 recessed screws instead of bolts AND the front hole is left empty.....

May not be gospel but that is what I observed.

Bob C.

[Alex van de Wetering]

Hi Bob,

I came to the same conclusion after viewing the Servicepub Factory photos CD....factory did fit all bolts. In the field however it seems that sometimes those last two bolts were tossed in the bin after work on the rad and/or engine.
One of factory pics I found fascinating is that of a cab11 that was crated for assembly elsewhere.....the panel work around the radiator and the curved panels that attach to the arch bars are assembled as one piece.
I'd love to hear what others think about the filler necks.....did early Cab11's indeed have a short filler neck which was tilted backwards and did this give so much trouble when accessing the filler cab, that later on in production they fitted longer filler necks?

As for your cab assembly.....is it possible to fit the whole lot in it's original holes and just remove that panel on top of the rad, when you need to access the filler cap??? hmm...I thought this would just involve removing 4 (or 6) bolts, but I now realise you also have to remove some bolts of the grille.....

Alex

[RHClarke]

It has been busy at the barn despite the lull in updates. Last weekend saw a lot of fire wood stacking, cleaning up and clearing away of items in preparation for winter. Since Monday was a holiday (for federal employees) Bob and I spent the day at the barn. Grant was called in to work for some reason or other.

The temperature hit 21oC at the barn on Monday - a record for this region. So Bob broke out the sandblasting equipment and cleaned up most of his front fenders. There were some issues with the compressor that caused the coil in the control box to go up in smoke. Bob replaced the coil and got a few more minutes of blasting done before the new coil also went up in smoke. It looks like the control box will have to be replaced.

I spent the day working on the roof of the pilot model deciding where to replace the sheet metal. Bob recommended that I put the roof on a solid jig to prevent warping, so until that is done, the roof will wait. Next, I turned my attention to my 45 HUP roof hatch cover.

The hatch cover was in sad shape when I first got the truck. One of the previous owners cut a hole in the hatch into which he fitted a smoke stack for a wood burning stove that was put in back behind the divider on the passenger side of the rear of the truck. The heat from the stove warped all of the metal nearby and burned off the luxurious green liner on the passenger side door, the divider and the roof hatch. As mentioned previously in one of these threads, Bob and I welded up the hole. Last spring I dropped off the hatch cover at Brian Francis' place, where he trued up the edges and took out most of the warp in the hatch cover metal. He delivered the cover this summer and I was really surprised at how much metal can be shrunk or expanded. Brian did a great job. The cover stayed in the shelter until I dragged it out on Monday.

On Monday I cut away the rotten metal around the bushing mounting holes. The bushings hold the four arms and rollers that allow the hatch to roll back and forth in the tracks. All four of the bushings had rusted away on the inside edge of the hatch and had locked the shafts of the roller arms in place. Two of the bushing mounting brackets had also rusted away. The removal of the old bushings was quite easy as the metal around the edges of the hatch had also rusted away. This meant that new metal had to be welded in to replace it.

The next trick was to remove the broken off bolts on the end of two of the pivot arms. Using Bob’s “nut” technique, I welded on a small nut and eventually (after a dozen tries) removed the offending bits. I had forgotten that I had drilled out the old bolt shafts and tried to use “easy outs” to remove the remaining metal. Some folks never learn (meaning me of course). I figured that the easy outs would work nicely on such a small bolt. Wrong. Again. The remaining easy out came out rather easily using the nut technique, and the remaining metal followed suit.

Photos:

1 - Bob adding to the Hammond beach. Despite compressor problems, Bob spent the best part of the afternoon merrily blasting away.
2 - Refurbished hatch sliding hardware - pivot shafts/roller arms and bushings
3 - More of the same
4 - Some of the rust damage

[RHClarke]

Now I had four working pivot shafts/roller arms (one required a new fabbed up arm and roller), four new bushings, two replacement bushing mounts and four metal “blanks” to replace the rotted away metal. By the end of the day I managed to weld in two of the four blanks and two of the bushing brackets. As I use the gorilla weld technique, there is some clean up required, but that will have to wait for another day. After a clean up, Bob and I headed for home keenly aware that on 12 November 2012, we had worked up a sweat in the 20oC plus weather. Weird weather.

Photos:

1 - One of the old bushings (note the pitting) and some of the replacement metal bits and pieces
2 - Replacement bushing bracket in place (more welding needed)
3 - Rotten metal replaced (more welding needed) awaiting drilling of the new hole for the bushing
4 - Progress on the hatch cover - new metal in, bracket attached, awaiting drilling and attachment of bushings.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi

Very impressed with the roof arms, how did you make the brass rollers?

I've got a whole new hatch for my HUP and those little arms are the last thing I need to fabricate.

Cheers Phil

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi Very impressed with the roof arms, how did you make the brass rollers? I've got a whole new hatch for my HUP and those little arms are the last thing I need to fabricate.Cheers Phil

Hi Phil,

There is a small metal working/welding shop in a little town called Embrun, which is just down the road from Bob's ranch. The owner is an elderly gentleman with remarkable skills, which were no doubt honed from decades of plying his trade. He made up the brass ball on a lathe and turned the rivet to affix the ball to the arm (which I fabbed up).

Please let me know if you have any spare hatch hardware. I am in need of the interior handles. I think I can replace the springs, footman loops, chains and straps with commercially available items.

Could you check a few items for me? I need photos of the arms on your hatch so that I can replicate the angle of the bushings when I weld them in next week. A shot from the interior showing the holes in the bushings and how they align with the pivot arms would be appreciated. As well, a photo of the thumb screws that the springs attach to would also be great. Now that I think of it, I will be visiting your website to see if they already exist. If not, could you fix me up with the photos?

[Phil Waterman]

Hi

There are some photos on my site already look on http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/Posting.html and you will see a listing of photos. I have drawings of the center hold bracket I'l find and post along with some better photos related to your questions.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Rob

Found the hatch hardware drawings I had them posted on my web site after all but one of the links was broken, now fixed.



Here are the links to all three drawings:
Drawing 1 http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/H..._Paper%201.htm
Drawing 2 http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/H..._Paper%201.htm
Drawing 3 http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/H..._Paper%201.htm

Details on your questions to follow.

Cheers Phil

[Phil Waterman]

Originally Posted by RHClarke

Hi Phil,...

....
Please let me know if you have any spare hatch hardware. I am in need of the interior handles. I think I can replace the springs, footman loops, chains and straps with commercially available items.

Could you check a few items for me? I need photos of the arms on your hatch so that I can replicate the angle of the bushings when I weld them in next week. A shot from the interior showing the holes in the bushings and how they align with the pivot arms would be appreciated. As well, a photo of the thumb screws that the springs attach to would also be great. Now that I think of it, I will be visiting your website to see if they already exist. If not, could you fix me up with the photos?

Hi Rob

Sorry I only have the one set of hardware for the hatch which I will be shifting over from the old hatch to the new hatch.

Took some pictures today to try and answer your questions above and posted them to my web site they're on http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/Posting.html page about half way down the page. Did it that way because of the MLU size limitation. Let me know if you need more pictures or ones taken from a different angle.

Cheers Phil

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi Rob Sorry I only have the one set of hardware for the hatch which I will be shifting over from the old hatch to the new hatch. Took some pictures today to try and answer your questions above and posted them to my web site they're on http://canadianmilitarypattern.com/Posting.html page about half way down the page. Did it that way because of the MLU size limitation. Let me know if you need more pictures or ones taken from a different angle.
Cheers Phil

Phil, the shots on your website are the cat's pajamas! Thanks for the very useful photos. By the way, if you do not have plans for your old hatch, I could put it to good use.

Rob

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Rob

As I remove and replace parts that original I mark which vehicle they are off and store them away in the loft of the barn. For future use as templates and to answer questions. Got things like bumpers, door skins, etc.

I had a whole new hatch fabricated at a local sheet metal shop, I'll try and find the drawings. They are two computers back so I'll need to find the hard copies. They will probably be of more use than my bent hatch anyway.

Glad the photos are of help.

Cheers Phil

[Bob Carriere]

To follow up on the previous posting about last weekend from Rob.

Just want to share my recent experience blasting away !!!!

I used TSC coarse black grit of some sort and crushed glass from Princess Auto 20-30 grit.

The coarse crushed glass outperformed the black TSC grit almost 50% better,

On the same rusted front fender it cleaned faster..... removed deep pits with fewer passes........ generated less dust ......and covered a greater area by at least 30%..... I also suspect that the crushed glass is less likely to clump up with humidity than the dusty TSC black stuff.

I will resume this weekend and will exhaust my TSC black stuff but will not buy it again.

Bob C.

[RHClarke]

I had some time on my hands today, so I went to the barn to put a few things away (more on that later) and to measure some hatch hardware for Grant.

There is a flat metal ring that is mounted on the inside of the cab by 16 flat head slotted stove bolts of varying lengths. These bolts pierce the inner ring, the roof, the wooden spacer and finally the outside flange on the steel hatch ring. The bolts are affixed to the outside ring by washers and nuts. The holes on the passenger side of the ring are countersunk so that the screw heads do not pose too much of a danger to tall passengers.

The inner metal ring is composed of three sections of steel that have been bent and welded together in a ring (for diameter see Phil Waterman's excellent website). The metal ring is approximately 24mm wide and is of the same gauge as the outer ring flange.


Photos:

1- Inside hatch ring
2- Countersunk holes (mind the blurry photo)
3- Width of inner hatch ring metal
4- Do you know what these are for?

[Grant Bowker]

Thank you Rob. For ease of manufacture I may go to 4 segments, once welded and dressed the joints won't show and I will be able to work from a smaller sheet. I hadn't thought to ask about the countersunk holes, but it makes sense.

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Rob

Do you have the wood spacer or you need more dimensions? I used rubber roof membrane as a gasket under the wood to seal it to the roof gooey stuff to work with but seals nicely. Had to replace all the bolts on mine because they had rusted in the wood and lost a lot of their thickness. Ended up having to buy all the bolts long and then cut the length to fit.

Cheers Phil

[Grant Bowker]

Rob has been kind enough to loan me the remnants of his wood spacer. Although it is in rough shape, I think that it is a good enough guide to work from. I can also get some profile information from the driver side of the roof to be able to get the dome of the roof right (the spacer ring is not a simple taper from front to back, I could have applied high school trigonometry to calculate heights if tit were a simple taper) to add to the information on your web page.

[RHClarke]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

Hi Rob Do you have the wood spacer or you need more dimensions? I used rubber roof membrane as a gasket under the wood to seal it to the roof gooey stuff to work with but seals nicely. Had to replace all the bolts on mine because they had rusted in the wood and lost a lot of their thickness. Ended up having to buy all the bolts long and then cut the length to fit. Cheers Phil

Hi Phil, As Grant mentioned, my spacer is in very rough shape. I am in the process of producing the first of a few prototype replacement spacers. I originally thought about bending some wood up using a steambox etc..., but being a lazy sort, I took the easier route. I cut a number of curved sections of MDF and then glued them together. Once solid, I cut the inside diameter to match the outer hatch ring diameter (just below the flange). After some sanding, it fit nicely. I cut the rough outside diameter and then fixed the spacer to the outer hatch ring. Then, I used Bob's belt sander to get the outside diameter down to the flange diameter. After detaching the hatch ring, I sanded the blank down slightly smaller than the outer diameter of the flange. The contour of the blank spacer mimicked the original spacer, but may have to be adjusted as the old spacer has shrunk. If there is any adjusting needed, I will use body putty to fill the gaps and to ensure that the bottom of the spacer fits the roof close enough to look good. Once that is done, I plan to wrap the spacer in fiberglass, sand it down and paint it green. It should outlast the truck. I will use a rubber gasket to put between the bottom of the spacer and the roof and that should take up most of the remaining slack.

I am still checking to see if there are plastic pipes available with the same or close diameter and wall thickness. If I find one that fits the bill, I plan to cut a number of blanks, drill the bolt holes and paint them green. It may temporarily take care of the great spacer shortage in our area.

Too bad we don’t know of anyone local with a steam box and a desire to make some money…it would save me some time and effort.

[Grant Bowker]

Interesting idea. One supplier's technical manual fo plastic pipe can be found at:
http://ipex.ceros.com/municipal/pressurepiping/page/1
So far, all of the sizes for 24" nominal pipe seem just a bit off what we need. From experience, these pipes can usually be worked with tools that would work for woodworking. (although some construction gangs use abrasive cutoff wheels intended for pavement cutting - this stinks, basically melts/burns the plastic)

[Bob Carriere]

Steam bending is the repro of choice. However not an easy task considering the thickness of the board to be bent.

Having done basketry with Joyce for 10 years while in Toronto and having bent black ash...... to be pronouced carefully and spelled accurately.... it is easy and difficult. I have done countless backet rims using 3/4 x 1 in. wood bent to 180 degrees...... some to 360 for basket rims.

Ideally you would need to cut a Black ash and work it while still green..... it is very pliable when steamed.

You would need to have a log about 8 feet long and 12 inches in diameter..... green it is a two strong man job to carry...... and usually grows well in poorly drained soil..... hint near a swamp !!!

It needs to be quarter sawn and you would use the 6 inch width from the outside to the heart as one piece. Why do you think I have that large bandsaw in the barn...? If you decided to pound your ash with a 2 pound hammer you would have splints to weave baskets.... which explains the Little Giant blacksmith mechanical hammer in the other corner of the barn.

Steam box is just a long box hinged at one end usually made from cedar. Can't use metal as it will react with the wood and make dark stains but plastic is good.

For the Oshawa folks...... near the Pickering Museum was the last operating apple basket factory that ran well into the mid 1950.... using black ash and hydraulic and screw presses. Joyce was trained by one of the Mic Ma' elders in Cap Breton island.....Irene Johnson....full blood blond air blue eyed lady....... !!!!

Board has to be steamed at least an hours maybe more if dried.... I used two flea market hot water kitchen steam kettles.

Wood that has dried can be soaked in water and a small quantity of Bounce fabric softerner for a few days before steaming..... using a plastic sewer pipe cut as a trough works nicely.

You would need a sturdy wooden mold or pattern to bend it around to the desired shape.

To properly guide the hot wood around the form ....one should use a strip / piece of sheet metal with some fasteners at the end so they can be pulled with great force with turn buckles. Industrial installations use hydraulic devices.

Bending a board of black ash one inch thick 360 degrees as to be done fast in one swoop and would require some muscle.... another option would be to wrap many layers of 1/4 thick wood and glue once dried.

Do-able..... hard to justify the set up just for one.

Once dried it will retain its shape.

By far easier to build up the circle in segments of the same wood..... white ash or black ash or even oak.... sandwich the segments using modern Gorilla or crazy glue ( works on green wood) used by wood workers...... cut ID and OD to size..... once fully dimensioned seal with POR paint including inside the bolt holes........ voila.

For a fine finish we could mount it outboard on my wood late and turn it perfectly round.

Will supply a per unit quote upon request..... hihihi always wanted to start a second career when I retire next year.

Boobee.

[Bob Carriere]

The scourge of our generation....

Grant may be on to something..... one inch thick plastic board slowly heated and bent to shape....... fused/glued open ends together..... no warpage due to water. Easy to drill and cut to size......

So what is the price of a one inch thick 6 inches wide board worth...?

That is what I call leaving behind 1812 and catching up to 2012.

[RHClarke]

Saturday felt like the coldest day of the year. It was about -10oC with a good stiff wind blowing. Hammond got a light dusting of snow the night before that also served notice that winter is coming. So, the first order of business was to feed Lucifer, which made working in the barn much more tolerable.

Shortly after things warmed up in the barn, Grant and Bob made their apparances. The order of business for today included a local recovery, clear out and clean up the rear of the barn, and then on to some small projects.

We three loaded up Bob's Ford for a quick cross-country trek to the wilds of Kars, Ontario, where a nice 261 engine awaited its new home. The engine was stored at Greg Wright's place and Greg lent a hand for the loading - thanks to him, we were able to refill the hydraulic cylinder resevior of the engine lift that had somehow gone dry. Bringing along the mobile engine lift was a very good idea as it made loading the engine a breeze. After a few adjustments, the engine was safely tied down and we said good bye to Greg, and hit the road again.

After a quick stop in Manotic at Tim Horton's, we headed back to Hammond along the rural routes to see what was hidden in the back yards now that the leaves were down. There were a few prospective locations to be checked out later, but nothing screamed CMP.

Back at the barn, we off loaded the engine, winterized it and stored it for future use. Then we sorted out the rear of the barn, which had become somewhat crowded. We usually use the back of the barn during the cold months given its proximity to Lucifer and given that either the tractor or one of our trucks occupy the front end of the barn.

Bob tended to a bunch of little tasks such as sorting sockets, looking for items and general organization. Grant got busy putting together his round hatch inside retaining ring. He fashioned the ring from four pieces of metal that he cut with a jigsaw. These four pieces were welded together and drilled. The end product looks the part and will definitely do the job.

I played with the sandblaster. The small doors from the Pilot model HUP doghouse needed to be cleaned of years of paint, tar and asbestos. Once the hazardous crap was removed, into the cabinet it went. After blasting, I got the metal working hammers and dollies out to straighten the edges and to take out the warpage.

It was a good but busy day at the Hammond barn. Thanks to Bob for the transport and Grant for the labour in recovering the engine. I am sure that more "treasures" await us in the near future.

Photos:

1 - The load out
2 - Picking up the engine at Greg Wright's place
3 - Snugly settled in the back of the Ford
4 - Grant's soon to be round hatch retaining ring
5 - Nearly done retaining ring

[RHClarke]

Christmas is quickly approaching, so on behalf of the members of the Hammond Barn and the Ottawa Rotters, we wish you and yours the best of the season, Merry Christmas and best wishes for a happy New Year!

[RHClarke]

I got an email from Bob Carriere last night after he finished blasting the snow out of the driveways. Our shelters were a bit worse for wear. The combination of freezing rain, layers of snow and ice put a strain on all of the car shelters. The first casualty was Clive's shelter. It is now laying over his trailer providing a nice slide for the turkeys that Bob is feeding around the barn.

Grant's shelters suffered some sagging and material damage but nothing to worry about unless we get more freezing rain. Bob had fun clearing off his shelter which after having one side cleaned decided to take a step towards the barn until it shed its load of ice and snow before popping back into place.

My Pilot Model shelter and spares shelter were weighed down with an impressive amount of snow and ice, but both sprung back into position after I removed quite a pile of ice from the surfaces.

My 45 HUP shelter did not fare that well. It now has a distinct lean towards Bob's house. I am sure that the ice and snow would have eventually done their nasty deeds to the shelter in the near future, but this shelter obtained its lean from a gentle nudge from Bob's tractor. The combination of ice and snow and the nudge sent the shelter on its way earthwards. The roof of the shelter now rests on the roof of the HUP. I tied off the shelter frame to the nearby hydro pole so that it won't take flight with the strong winds that were blowing earlier today.

Bob and Grant were away doing separte tasks today, so it was just Lucifer and myself. While Lucifer gleefully glowed away, I took on the task of removing the dangerous amount of snow and ice off the shed roof. This took about three hours to complete, and I only cleared off the leeward side of the long shed, and most of the windward side.

By this time I had worked up quite a sweat, so I changed clothing and enjoyed Lucifer's warm embrace. After shutting down the fuel line, I locked up the barn and headed for home. The boys will be out to the barn on Sunday, and if things work out, my son, Jesse and I will join them for lunch.


Photos:

1- 45 HUP shelter askew
2 -Same
3 -Clive's shelter in hull down position
4 -The shed with some ice and snow removed
5 -If you look closely, you will see a dark outline of a turkey between the red and black trailers. I will be surprised if a few didn't disappear over Christmas...

[RHClarke]

As the old year winds down, a few more photos of our snowfall will have to do until 2013. We now have more snow this winter than we had combined last winter. The first blast of winter included a lot of freezing rain, wet snow and flurries followed by some cold arctic air. This accumulation put some serious stresses on our shelters and the shed, so the past week has been dedicated to snow clearing and removal. It will be nice to get back to work on CMPs, but that is a small price to pay to live in and near Hammond!

Happy New Year to all!

Photos:
1 - The "before" shot.
2 - The "after" shot.
3 - Quiet times at the barn.

[Bob Carriere]

Spent the better part of today relocating some of the snow to make room for the next storm. Redoing loose nuts on the snowblower and fixing the Ford with loose mud guards and installing the winter grill cover.

Sure appreciate the muscle power from both Rob and Grant.

...and as soon as all the heavy snow falls off the barn roof will have to do it again.... make sure you look up before you slam the side door or whoommph!!!

That pretty well wraps up this year.....

..... so a
C anadian
M erry Xmas and
P rosperous NEW YEAR ................. or is it preposterous !!!!

Boob

[Little Jo]

Hi Bob and the Hammond guys.

I really enjoy following your escapades in the barn and playing in the snow. I look forward to your thread in 2013. All that snow in Canada is such a difference to us here at home in South Australia where they are predicting our temperature for Thursday and Friday at 41 and 42 degrees. Bit hot for this old boy born in the snow in Holland.

A Safe and Prosperous 2013 to you all.

Cheers

Tony