Balkans Campaign: CMPs in Greece?

[Hanno Spoelstra]

On this forum I found one picture of a CMP during the Balkans Campaign: a captured CMP F15 15-cwt truck, photographed on 8 May 1941 when German troops were marching to Athens.


As I am interested to learn more about the use of CMPs in Greece, but knowing little of the Balkans Campaign, I decided to do some reading up on the subject. On the U.S. Army Center of Military History website I found some material on the The German Campaigns on the Balkans. From this source I quote:

Chapter 13: The Defense Forces - III. British and Imperial Forces

From 7 through 31 March the headquarters of I Australian Corps with corps troops, the 6th Australian and 2d New Zealand Divisions, and the 1st Tank Brigade of the 2d British Armored Division, as well as service troops, disembarked at the ports of Piraeus and Volos. These forces Ad been assembled near Alexandria, Egypt, and shipped across the Mediterranean at the beginning of March. Immediately upon arrival, the tank brigade moved to the lower Vardar west of Salonika, the New Zealand division took up positions north of Mount Olympus in the bend of the Aliakmon River, and the Australian division blocked the Aliakmon Valley up to the Vermion Range. General Wilson established his headquarters northwest of Larisa. The Royal Air Force continued to operate from airfields in central and southern Greece. There were few planes that could be diverted to this theater in addition to defending Malta, providing air cover for the widely dispersed ground forces fighting in North Africa, and safeguarding the naval convoys across the Mediterranean.

The British forces were almost fully motorized, but their equipment was suitable for desert warfare, not for the steep mountain roads in Greece. There was a shortage of tanks and antiaircraft guns. The lines of communication across the Mediterranean were very vulnerable despite the fact that the British Navy dominated the Aegean Sea. All convoys had to pass close to enemy-held islands in the Aegean. The logistical problems were aggravated by the limited availability of shipping and the low capacity of the Greek ports. Only one single-line railroad and one good highway led northward from Piraeus, the principal port of debarkation.

Who knows more about the vehicles used by the:
- headquarters of I Australian Corps with corps troops,
- 6th Australian Division,
- 2nd New Zealand Division,
- the 1st Tank Brigade of the 2d British Armored Division,
- as well as RAF and service troops?

Judging by the captured F15, some of these units employed CMP trucks - I hope to find more information about them.

Any input is welcome!

Thanks,
Hanno

[Mike Kelly]

Hanno

more info here : http://home.freeuk.com/johndillon/greece.htm

Was the ill fated Greek campaign the result of a politician sticking his beak in and meddling in strategic matters ....a certain portly cigar smoker

Mike

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly

more info here : http://home.freeuk.com/johndillon/greece.htm
Was the ill fated Greek campaign the result of a politician sticking his beak in and meddling in strategic matters ....a certain portly cigar smoker

Thanks Mike, makes for interesting reading. And yes, some people want to be larger than life during their lifetime. . .

H.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

the 1st Tank Brigade of the 2d British Armored Division

At Wikipedia I found the following:

1st Armoured Brigade
It was based in the United Kingdom initially as part of the 1st Armoured Division and then the newly formed 2nd Armoured Division. In January 1941 it was shipped out to Egypt. When Greece was invaded the 1st Armoured Brigade was sent with General Maitland Wilson's unsuccessful attempt at stopping the German invasion. On 29 April 1941 it was evacuated to Egypt.

The 1st Armoured Brigade served briefly in the Western Desert Campaign with the 7th Armoured Division at the Battle of El Alamein. The brigade was disbanded on 21 November 1942.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Who knows more about the vehicles used by the:
- 2nd New Zealand Division

In New Zealand in the Second World War - To Greece I found some pictures proving the New Zealanders did use CMP trucks in Greece.

Who knows which types they were supplied with: 15, 30, 60-cwt? Ford, Chevrolet or both makes?

H.

[Peter Mossong]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

In New Zealand in the Second World War - To Greece I found some pictures proving the New Zealanders did use CMP trucks in Greece.

Who knows which types they were supplied with: 15, 30, 60-cwt? Ford, Chevrolet or both makes?

H.

Hi Hanno. The following are some photos from my late grandfather's album taken both before, and during the Greek campaign.
He was the Regimental Sergeant Major/Quartermaster NCO of No.6 Field Regiment, NZA. I have posted another photo showing my granddad in the relatives threads.

These are all scans of those small 2"x2" prints that most early albums have. Some are not the greatest quality, but I've managed to clean them up a bit.

The first shot, and a close-up show CMP's of No.6 Field lined up ready for embarkation to Greece. They appear to be in one of the 'Caunter' schemes.
Note also the 'dead soldiers' (empty beer bottles) lying in the sand!
Unfortunately I can't get a clear enough enlargement to pick any census numbers.

The next shot is FAT's, limbers and 25lbers taken in Athens on the way up to the front.

The last two show the FAT's near Mt.Olympus. They do appear to be Fords from enlarged scans of the photo.

Cheers,
Pete M.

[Keith Webb]

Excellent images, thanks for sharing them Peter.

I think the FATs in the lower picture may all be Morris...the one facing certainly is and the front hubs don't look CMP.

[Peter Mossong]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

Excellent images, thanks for sharing them Peter.

I think the FATs in the lower picture may all be Morris...the one facing certainly is and the front hubs don't look CMP.

Hi Keith. You may well be correct regarding the FAT's in my photo.
I'll have another go at scanning that tiny photo again!

Cheers,
Pete M.

[Peter Mossong]

Originally Posted by Keith Webb

Excellent images, thanks for sharing them Peter.

I think the FATs in the lower picture may all be Morris...the one facing certainly is and the front hubs don't look CMP.

Hi Keith. After having another look at my higher resolution scans of these, I think you are correct in that they are Morris Mk.II 'Beetle back' FATs, as the two roof mounted ventilators can just be made out. The nose of the bodies also appear to be Morris rather than CMP's.

I did some further 'digging' in my archives for information on 6th Field Regiment's vehicles pre-Greece, and found they were issued 36 Morris FAT's just before they embarked for Greece. Needless to say, none of these made it back to Egypt!

Post Greece, the Western desert, Tunisia then Italy, they all appear to be CMP based vehicles.

Cheers,
Pete M.

[Peter Mossong]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

In New Zealand in the Second World War - To Greece I found some pictures proving the New Zealanders did use CMP trucks in Greece.

Who knows which types they were supplied with: 15, 30, 60-cwt? Ford, Chevrolet or both makes?

H.

I've been unable to source what CMP vehicles were issued to No.6 Field ( and the NZ Division), but have attached a further enlargement from the 6th Field photo at Molos. Hard to tell if Ford or Chevy!

Both General Motors and Ford here in New Zealand assembled CMP's from CKD kits supplied from Canada, but I've not been able to find whether they were sent to Egypt, or remained in New Zealand.
Further 'digging' is required!!!

Cheers,
Pete M.

[cliff]

A lot of the first 'Issue' of CMP type vehicles to The New Zealand Division in the Middle East were vehicles shipped direct to Egypt under British Order numbers and 'sold' to the NZ government by the British.

A few #11 cab F30, 134in WB GS trucks without the vents have turned up in New Zealand over the past few years. The 'Puddle Jumpers' - the 2lb anti-tank gun carriers (later converted to GS trucks post war) were 12 cab Chevrolets.

From past memory New Zealand took all surviving trucks under their command when hostilities ceased in Europe back to NZ. Most of the GM NZ assembled trucks may have been the C8AX but I am not entirely sure if this is correct .

Hope this helps

[Peter Mossong]

Originally Posted by cliff

A lot of the first 'Issue' of CMP type vehicles to The New Zealand Division in the Middle East were vehicles shipped direct to Egypt under British Order numbers and 'sold' to the NZ government by the British.

A few #11 cab F30, 134in WB GS trucks without the vents have turned up in New Zealand over the past few years. The 'Puddle Jumpers' - the 2lb anti-tank gun carriers (later converted to GS trucks post war) were 12 cab Chevrolets.

From past memory New Zealand took all surviving trucks under their command when hostilities ceased in Europe back to NZ. Most of the GM NZ assembled trucks may have been the C8AX but I am not entirely sure if this is correct .

Hope this helps

Hi Cliff. Not just the C8AX...

Taken at General Motors Petone factory in 1940 from the New Zealand National Archives

Ref: 1/2-036839-F

Chevrolet 4x4 truck used by the army. Photograph taken by Gordon Burt, circa 1940.

I have searched, and there were no further relevant listings by this photographer in the archives..I'm sure he wouldn't have just taken the one photo!!! Still, It's a real beauty.

If anyone would like a higher resolution copy, then I have posted one to my Dropbox public folder..it's a .tiff file of 9.1megs. Credit to NZ National Archives, but for discussion purposes only, not for further publication!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ebhxu62jid...20cab.tif?dl=0

Cheers,
Pete M.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Who knows more about the vehicles used by the:
- headquarters of I Australian Corps with corps troops,
- 6th Australian Division

From 'A Great Risk in a good cause' I learned the Australians used CMPs as well.

Photo caption: "Transport vehicles passing through the village of Perdik during the withdrawal from Vevi, 13 April 1941."

Looks like an 11 Cab 15-cwt with 2B1 body. But Ford or Chev?

Thanks,
Hanno

Addition: later I found this pic at the AWM as well: "ID Number: 007649; Summary: GREECE, 1941-04-13. TRANSPORT PASSING THROUGH THE VILLAGE OF PERDIKA DURING THE WITHDRAWAL FROM THE MONASTIER GAP. NOTE: IN SPITE OF THE INSISTENCE DURING TRAINING TO THE DISPERSAL OF VEHICLES DURING CONVOY, LITTLE ATTENTION WAS PAID TO THIS IMPORTANT FACTOR ALTHOUGH, DURING THIS PERIOD, THE GERMAN AIR FORCE WAS PARTICULARLY ACTIVE ALONG THE ROADS."

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

From 'A Great Risk in a good cause' I learned the Australians used CMPs as well.

The AWM yielded a couple more pictures.

First one has a 15-cwt in the background:
"ID Number: P04680.002; Place made: Greece; Date made: c April 1941; Summary: An Australian Army Ford 4x4 artillery tractor towing a No 27 Mk I limber and an 18 pounder Mk IV field gun, which has just negotiated a stone bridge through the winding and steep Verroia Pass, Greece. Approximately 1400 units of these Ford vehicles were purchased by the Australian Army between 1939 and 1941 and many of these were converted to four wheel drive by fitting a Marmon-Herrington front wheel drive kit to the chassis. 441 of these vehicles were sent to the Middle East in 1940 and 54 of these subsequently saw service during the Greek campaign in April 1941. These vehicles were powered by an 85 horsepower V8 engine with a four speed gearbox and two speed transfer case. They had leaf spring suspension and were also fitted with an Australian roadster style cab, making them a uniquely Australian vehicle. The Official designation for these vehicles was Tractor 4x4, Artillery (Aust), LP No 3 and 3A (fitted with a winch). This particular vehicle, with the army registration number 9964 was transported to Greece aboard the MV Comliebank but was later abandoned when the Australian forces were evacuated. "

Second pic shows a couple of 4x2 15-cwts:
"ID Number: 007816; Maker: Silk, George; Date made: April 1941; Summary: Greece. April 1941. During the withdrawal, motor transports and other vehicles passing through rugged country."

[cletrac (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra

Photo caption: "Transport vehicles passing through the village of Perdik during the withdrawal from Vevi, 13 April 1941."

Looks like an 11 Cab 15-cwt with 2B1 body. But Ford or Chev?

They have square vents so both the front ones are Fords. I can't tell on the back one.

[Keith Webb]

Originally Posted by cletrac

They have square vents so both the front ones are Fords. I can't tell on the back one.

Also the shape of the radiator protector - they look to be F15s.

[cliff]

here is another #3 gun tractor from the AWM

ID Number: P04680.001; Place made: Greece; Date made: c April 1941; Summary: An Australian Army 18 pounder Mk IV field gun and a No 27 Mk I Limber, being towed by an LP No 3 or 3A artillery tractor through the Verroia Pass, Greece. The gun tractor is packed with soldiers and the gun traverse platform is visible stowed on top of the limber. Australian infantrymen are also visible trudging up the hill in the background. Credit line: Donor G Swinton

[T. Metsovitis]

CMPs captured by the Germans in Greece could just as well have been vehicles in Greek service. The Hellenic Army among other aid received from Britain, got 78 Ford 30 cwt and 44 F15s. A photo of the last type appears in one of the Panzer Colours books. I'll try to post some pics tomorrow.

Fyll

[T. Metsovitis]

Here is the promised pic. On the front bumper is the Hellenic Army number and the hexagon on the mudguard, serving as a background for the "WH" is the insignia of the 19th Motorised Division. The photo comes from "Panzer Colours II" by Bruce Culver.

Fyll

[Hanno Spoelstra]

All, thanks for the replies! I'd like to focus this thread on the CMP vehicles alone, particularly which units used which types of CMP trucks. If we cab get a clear picture of that, we can backtrack where they came from.

Originally Posted by T. Metsovitis

CMPs captured by the Germans in Greece could just as well have been vehicles in Greek service. The Hellenic Army among other aid received from Britain, got 78 Ford 30 cwt and 44 F15s.

Fyll, thanks for this - invaluable input! Any more info about the use of CMP trucks by the Greek Army, or their use after being captured by the German Army?

If I am not mistaken, the CMP trucks you mention were part of the shipment including those Vickers Dutchman tanks, right?

Sorry for asking all these questions, but inquiring minds want to know!

Thanks,
Hanno

[cliff]

David a lot of the larger trucks appear to be MCP 4X2 Chev's and Ford's with all the CMP photos I have been 15cwt trucks.