Dunkirk

[Ed Storey]

I never knew Canadians were rescued from Dunkirk during Op DYNAMO, I learn something new every day...

19 July, 2017 - Christopher Nolan's 'Intimate Epic' - Ottawa Citizen.jpg

[jdmcm]

have you seen the film yet Ed? any good?

John

[Ed Storey]

Not yet, although I hope there are no Canadians in it as the newspaper wants us to believe.

[motto]

I don't imagine it will be touched on in the film but I understand that some thousands of French troops were also taken off the Dunkirk beaches many of whom later returned to occupied France rather than join the Free French under DeGaul.
You couldn't blame them for just wanting to go home. Nobody knew how long the war would last or who would win and DeGaul was to many a hated man. The very definition of arrogance.

David

[r.morrison]

Gentlemen: Regarding the conversation about the "new" Dunkirk movie which has made it's way onto the forum..... the Canadian part of it I am very dodgy on. But some where in the back of my mind, I am pretty sure there were Canadians rescued at Dunkirk and that a small group had gone over and something reminds me that it was the Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment. I'll have to do a little more looking into this or possibly Ed.

HOWEVER..... if you are looking for Canadian content..... check out the original movie made in 1958 with John Mills and Richard Attenborough. At approximately 1 hour and 21 minutes 42 seconds you will see "John and Dicky" pull over to the side of a road to Dunkirk and there at the left side is an abandoned CMP Cab 12 30cwt. Fact or fiction....well we'll know soon enough.

Worth looking at...Robert AND maybe someone with far more skills on a computer than yours truly could post it here!!!

[Lynn Eades]

So When were the first Cab 12s built?

[jdmcm]

I think the real dangers of movies like Dunkirk is that they now become the genuine history for the uninformed who will never pick up a book and read about the events before during or after

[Lynn Eades]

I don't wish to be negative, but I was somewhat disappointed.
Yes Mike we saw a cab 13 there (3/4 front view)
For some perspective, there were 63,879 vehicles, and 20,548 motorcycles lost. I cant recall seeing one Carrier or Vickers Light Tank, or a kilted soldier.
They left behind 2472 Artillery pieces, but managed to get out 322 others, along with 4739 vehicles and 533 motor cycles. Of stores, they took off the beach about 66,000 tons of petrol, ammo and other stores.
Of the dead bodies (not seen) Gort lost 68,111 men. If I recall correctly you could see where the modern beach cleaning machines had left lines in the sand. A simple leaf blower would have dealt to that.
I believe the movie failed because it never gave any impression of the scale.
Yes the troops were beaten, but there was no return fire from the sheep on the beach, when the Stukas came in.
I would say that (in my unqualified opinion) what they focused on, was was reasonably portrayed.
As the director seemed to favour the air war, the RAF put in 4,822 flying hours in 9 days and lost 177 aircraft.
My figures come from Richard Colliers book "The Sands of Dunkirk"

The modern blue train seats and the aluminium window frames at the end were a shocker!

[Lang]

Just looked at Bruce's historic link.

The thing that is perpetrated throughout the Dunkirk story, probably beginning with morale boosting propaganda at the time, was the Germans defeated the allies with "overwhelming odds"

Any quick search on numbers will show the combined strength of the defending forces had considerably more men, tanks, trucks, artillery and aircraft than the Germans. It was shear audacity and risk taking by the Germans that won the day - Blitzkrieg. Rommel is just one divisional commander who outran his supply, ignored threats to his flanks and risked losing the lot by plunging deep into the opposing forces.

The speed and mobility of the assault totally bewildered the WW1 mentality of the French and British commanders.

The great unanswered question is why did the Germans give the allies a reprieve which enabled most of the British Army to be rescued?

Lang

[Mike Cecil]

So Lang, perhaps the more accurate phrase would be 'overwhelming force' rather than 'overwhelming odds'? An army doesn't need to be in superior numbers to exert 'overwhelming force' and through the audacious use of 'shock and awe', win the day - very much, I think, what the German Army did in the invasion of France. And George Patton did to a certain extent in the opposite direction four + years later: keep punching forward till the supply line holds you back.

I agree with you about the order for the advancing German units to halt/rest/regroup/ etc. Much debate, but no adequate explanation seems to have resulted. One of those mysteries of war.

Mike

[Bruce Parker (RIP)]

Originally Posted by Lang

The great unanswered question is why did the Germans give the allies a reprieve which enabled most of the British Army to be rescued?

Lang

Why? It's because the German commanders were ordered to hesitate by their political master. The delay was to try one last time to get the British to 'see reason' and make a deal to join Germany as a lesser partner. Should that happen, an intact British army would be useful. It sounds wacky but there was enough support in the British parliament to make it a possibility. A possibility, that is, until Winston Churchill rightly dug his heels in. The same perceived support for a possible British/German deal by some British parliamentarians and The Duke of Windsor was also responsible for the setting up of a clandestine meeting with Rudolf Hess when he flew his Me110 into Scotland. Of course it was a trap, but it only worked because Germany thought it was possible. Read "Ten Days to Destiny" by John Costello.

[Mike Kelly]

Originally Posted by Lang

The great unanswered question is why did the Germans give the allies a reprieve which enabled most of the British Army to be rescued?

Lang

According to the doco on TV a few weeks back, Goering promised Hitler the Luftwaffe would finish off the British at Dunkirk with prolonged bombing . The doco claimed , most historians have ignored what the RAF actually did - save the day . The TV doco was dispelling the furphy that the RAF was not seen above the beaches and the Luftwaffe had a free sky to do whatever .

They interviewed veterans , and the RAF was actually doing quite a lot behind the beaches , unseen by the guys trapped on the beach.

The doco praised the Spitfire in particular , its first encounter with German fighters was described. The Luftwaffe lost many aircraft , hundreds during the battle for France . The French air force put up a decent fight , it wasn't another Polish debacle.

[Lang]

Mike and Bruce you seem to make my point about unanswered reasons.

Bruce has the Germans deliberately stopping to allow a political arrangement, Mike has them getting no reprieve but the German Army standing back while the German Air Force took over the (unsuccessful) job of destroying them.

Neither theory looks strong to me.

We seem to forget the British Army fell back before the Germans as easily as the French. Both claim the other moved rearward exposing their flanks forcing them to move also.

What about the tarnished French Army putting up such a resistance on the defense perimeter they occupied the Germans long enough for an escape to be made. If the Germans were seriously held up, their artillery would have been fully occupied on the defenders not being used in some sort of random slaughter of milling people inside the perimeter.

Whatever the heroism involved in the evacuation and 3 days of "holiday" ,for whatever reason, the rescue would not have happened if the French had not continued to put up a wall to allow the British to escape.

Just another theory.

Lang

[jdmcm]

Well said Hanno

At least they are still making WW2 films to remind the generations so detached from it that it actually happened...maybe the movie will spark some interest and some kid will pick up a book, or get on the computer and get hooked on the history...that's my hope...then inaccuracies aside, the movie served a useful purpose...I remember as kid watching Kelly's Heroes and Where Eagles Dare with my father...neither being what you would call accurate depictions of history...but they sparked and interest in me that has lasted my whole life

John

[Lang]

I think the difference between other war movies and Dunkirk is the others (including all those old John Wayne WW2 efforts) were full complete adventure stories with developed characters in a war setting.

Dunkirk has no adventure/character story (if you discount a couple of young blokes looking for a ride and a fellow driving his boat) but uses the event to produce a disjointed under-done film.

Film techniques have changed but dated as they are, equivalent movies about actual events such as "The Longest Day" and "A Bridge Too Far" are way and beyond Dunkirk both as a historical record and entertainment.

Lang

[Lang]

It was strange that the operations in Dunkirk did not go smoother because all three teams had been to a practice match 150 years earlier.

Must have been a Round Robin competition because Britain and Germany were teamed up to play the French.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Dunkirk_(1793)

[chalky]

It;s also interesting to note that when the Germans were defending Dunkirk from the allied advance in 1944 . Montgomery 'paused' outside the heavily defended town from September 1944 until the German capitulation in May 1945 !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Dunkirk _1944–45)

[Eric B]

Re: Reason for Panzer halt

On page 117 in Panzer Leader by Gen Guderian he states On this day (the 24th) The Supreme Command intervened in the operations in progress, with the results which were to have a most disastrous influence on the whole future course of the war. Hitler ordered the left wing to stop on the Aa. The order contained the words, " Dunkirk is to be left to the Luftwaffe."

On page 120 he does not agree with Churchill's memoires that holding up the tanks was to give the English an opportunity to sue for peace or create a settlement. He agrees that Hitler and Goering thought that German air supremacy was strong enough to prevent any evacuation.

Eric