What tanks are these?

[david moore]

A wartime photo I have of Diamond T's struggling to get up the steep hill out of Marlborough, Wilts on the way south to either Salisbury Plain - or on to Southampton docks. I lived there and used to watch these although only 3 at the time!
But what sort of tank version are these - with the rather unwieldy upperworks?
Also include a Marlborough road sign of the period.

[David Herbert]

They are M10 GMCs but with an added superstructure that was certainly not a recognized modification. There were standardized deep water fording kits available so I doubt if there would have been any point developing another version. Although an M10 is lighter than a Sherman I doubt that that box would have increased the displacement enough to make it float (like a DD) and the only other thought that I have is some sort of BARV, but the lighter weight would count against that as it would reduce the traction in the water. I will be fascinated to read any other ideas.

David

[Grant Bowker]

Camouflage? A row of them in a field would present the appearance of a long box or a building instead of being obvious tanks... Just a guess.

[david moore]

But where's the gun barrel?

[tankbarrell]

I suspect they are a box cover fitted before shipping across the Atlantic. The turret, being open topped, is more difficult to seal than a gun tank. The dark lines around the edges and the front hole looks like sealant. I assume the hole is to allow access without having to remove the entire box. The turret stows gun to the rear on the M10.

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally Posted by tankbarrell

I suspect they are a box cover fitted before shipping across the Atlantic. The turret, being open topped, is more difficult to seal than a gun tank. The dark lines around the edges and the front hole looks like sealant. I assume the hole is to allow access without having to remove the entire box. The turret stows gun to the rear on the M10.

Agree, that's what I think too.

[tankbarrell]

Apparently, that's Postern Hill, Marlborough in Wiltshire.

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Originally Posted by tankbarrell

The dark lines around the edges and the front hole looks like sealant.

Almost certainly. Once you know how vehicles were waterproofed for shipping overseas, that black par-al-ketone sprayed along any seam that might leak is very obvious.

[david moore]

Correct Adrian - on the road to Amesbury then Salisbury. Where would this work have been done - not in this small Wiltshire town!

[tankbarrell]

The waterproofing covers would have been fitted in the USA. The front openings removed after unloading from the ships.

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Here’s a web site with scans of a booklet published by General Motors, that includes some details of how Shermans were prepared for shipping overseas:

https://usautoindustryworldwartwo.co...orsservice.htm

And a model I built a few years ago to show how a Sherman would have been waterproofed:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/miss...9888&p=1656069

The M10s would have had much the same work done, except instead of taping up the turret they seem to have had a big box structure built over the open turret.

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke

Here’s a web site with scans of a booklet published by General Motors, that includes some details of how Shermans were prepared for shipping overseas:

https://usautoindustryworldwartwo.co...orsservice.htm

And a model I built a few years ago to show how a Sherman would have been waterproofed:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/miss...9888&p=1656069

The M10s would have had much the same work done, except instead of taping up the turret they seem to have had a big box structure built over the open turret.

Is this conversation going to deteriorate to asking about "the comb"? (winky face)

[david moore]

One puzzle Adrian. These vehicles are headed south - towards Southampton presumably - and then on to France? So, if they arrived like this from the USA - how come they got to north Wiltshire en route? Maybe delivered to Liverpool or even Avonmouth - too dangerous to ship direct to Southampton perhaps - U-Boats and all? Then a long cross-country drive behind Diamond T's ? Ferocious use of gas - or diesel? Why not take the waterproofing stuff off on arrival to save some weight - or maybe want to keep it on for the cross-channel piece?
Note how one diamond T has uncoupled from it's trailer to double-head on the steepest bit - 10% grade there. Leaving a loaded trailer on a steep hill? Wow!

[tankbarrell]

Diesel in the Diamond T but as to why etc, I don't know. I would imagine the box might be left on until landing in France but only if this were some time after D Day. I noticed the trailer. Either the other tractor has a problem or the hill is too steep for one. An M10 is not making the trailer fully loaded but it still might be a bad bit of gradient. The brakes on the Rogers trailer are very good, they work on all wheels and the parking brake keeps them on. They likely chocked it too.

[david moore]

A bit off-subject I know but in the background to the photo we are discussing you can see Marlborough GWR station (where my father liaised with Sgt Oscar Fulk to direct ammunition trains to the huge Savernake Forest US Army ammuntion depot just two miles south of Postern Hill). Also arriving at that station after D-Day were ambulance trains with US wounded headed for the 347th MASH hospital in Marlborough. Attached is a picture of one such ambulance train - you can just see the red cross on the roof. Austin ambulance in US service. Alao a photo of US Dodge ambulances delivering to the hospital, Also a photo of Sgt Fulk in his jeep .He stayed on in the UK after the war and ran a pub sadly without his jeep! My dad stayed pals with him.
Also loading or unloading Churchill tanks there.
Maybe that's the clue - those tanks were sent by rail to Marlborough station and unloaded there? But again why not rail them all the way?!
Photos courtesy of Neil Stevens.

[david moore]

Here is the Churchill photo

[maple_leaf_eh]

Originally Posted by david moore

A bit off-subject I know but in the background to the photo we are discussing you can see Marlborough GWR station (where my father liaised with Sgt Oscar Fulk to direct ammunition trains to the huge Savernake Forest US Army ammuntion depot just two miles south of Postern Hill). Also arriving at that station after D-Day were ambulance trains with US wounded headed for the 347th MASH hospital in Marlborough. Attached is a picture of one such ambulance train. ....

I had a look on line for Savernake Forest. Quite an amazing long history for one patch of woods. The map guy just couldn't resist reading how the modern-day searches were conducted.

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/re...glish-heritage

[Jakko Westerbeke]

Originally Posted by maple_leaf_eh

Is this conversation going to deteriorate to asking about "the comb"? (winky face)

Why, what do you want to know about it?

[Rob Abbott]

The whole Marlborough area is pretty rich in terms of wartime history and activity. I live in the village of Chiseldon which lies between Swindon and Marlborough on the A346 - The main road onwards to Salisbury and on to the South coast. I remember my Father in Law telling me about Churchill tanks exercising on the Wiltshire downs around here. There was an American Hospital at Chiseldon and 3 miles away is Aldbourne where the US 101st Airborne were billetted. A few miles from there is Chilton Foliat which was a parachute training school prior to DDay.
Savernake Forest is still a magnet for souvenir hunters and all sorts of spent ordnance and bits of rusty kit turn up even now.

[James P]

The pic of the Diamond T driving up the hill in post 1 is just begging for a "After the Battle" type shot from today.

[david moore]

I was back there last April -the railway station - two stations actually both GWR by then - in the background have gone (of course). The lower fields are now houses, a Tesco superstore and a gas station, The hill and Savernake Forest is still intact.

I have just noticed in the picture - if you look carefully - there is a line-up of about 8 more M10's on the road down towards the railway station. Quite a traffic jam - but virtually no civil vehicles allowed on the road anyway so I guess no problem.

[david moore]

I would guess that it is late summer there - so August/September 1944?