CMP trailer

Snowtractor · #1 14-02-05, 21:51

here is what looks like a military trailer for sale by tender in Sask. look at the hubs and what looks like green paint on the frame. Its gov. tender so anyone can bid. It is up on feb 22nd , any idea on what it is or was is probably a better question.

Sean

Bob Carriere · #2 15-02-05, 21:52

I have seen similar trailers before..... unfortunately at the time I wasn't into CMP......

They were usually converted to small construction shacks for storing tools of for a site supervisor.

I believe some had 16 CMP wheels although I seem to recall some 13 inch tires..... The whole front axle swings on a table arrangement.... the one in the picture seem to be sporting some undersize 7.50 x 16 tires...

They should be documented in Greggs book.

Sure wish I could stumble on one today...... Sask. might be a bit far to drive to for pickup...... hope someone from the CMP population gets it!!!!

Bob C.

Snowtractor · #3 16-02-05, 01:46

They almost look to be solid rubber. These are the only 2 pics on the site , and that is the highest res they are. This trailer is going to go for cheap I wager just because of its current looks and its obviously heavy.
Sean

ps:saved the picture and blew it up best I could and it just looks like the tires are bald bald bald and low of air. However, that said you can see the brake hub still attached and the sure look like CMP wheels. The rear is sprung with the mounts on the side of the frame as you'd put on a vehicle and the front turntable is massive. The rear may have been duals but I can't tell for sure. Interesting trailer.

Snowtractor · #4 16-02-05, 21:28

Looking in Canada fighting vehicles it could be one of 5 different trailers, closer inspection would probably tell. One could be TRAILER,4-WH,2-TON,GS....TRAILER,4-WH,MACHINERY,GRIND AND BRAKE....TRAILER,MACHINERY,60-TON PRESS....TRAILER,4-WH,5-TON,GS...TRAILER,4-WH,HEAVY COMPRESSOR.... and there are a few more less likely candidates. Most of these have the same dimesions there are just little details in the frame or hitch that tell. So I'll buy it, who wants to pick it up and store it in Sask. until I drive through this summer.... no no seriously

Sean

Snowtractor · #5 17-02-05, 07:48

...talked to the guy running the dept. which is selling the trailer and he says it is a 5-ton trailer and is "very old" and that is all he knew.
That said , anyone have any pics of TRAILER,4-WH,5-TON,GS being towed or at work in WWII.?
Sean

Bob Carriere · #6 21-02-05, 02:23

I am pretty sure that trailer is a single rear wheel... maybe GS 2 tons....

Found a wreck this Sunday outside of Ottawa..... nah!!!... it is not for sale......

Check out the pictures.... which will come one at a time.....

first one is from the front.... massive a frame hitch..... unfortunately buried in ice and snow...... right behind the front wheel is the remain of a rectangualr tool /storage compartment... the other side as a similar chest of some sort.... accessible formt he inside. If you look carefully you can see the remain of the floor where the walls have been cut off.... rounded corners.

see the next picture......

Bob Carriere · #7 21-02-05, 02:26

.... picture of the right rear..... see the square ended section.... single rear wheel..... 16 CMP..... on the hub where the axle shaft would bolt in is a sheet metal cover....front and back.

...again look at the tool bin just ahead of the rear wheel...also almost directly above the rear wheel is a trap door in the floor... original of what????

again you can see the remains of the original floor.......

On to the last one....

Bob Carriere · #8 21-02-05, 02:29

this pisture is taken from the rear left hand side.

That funny rectangular panel is original looking and looks like a fold down table.... what was it left there when everything else was cut..????

Also behind the fold down panel ... you can see the second tool box/chest......

Things wer heavily encrusted with ice and snow.... and for our Aussie friends..... although sunny it was minus 25 Celsius.....

Snowtractor · #9 21-02-05, 07:27

The brake repair and the 60 ton press 3-ton trailers had drop sides for work benches . I don't know about Ottawa and area but Winnipeg still has some docks in the old areas of town that can only be accessed by side drop down ramps . That is the original drop down from the looks of it. Still haven't seen any in action photos of these.
Sean

Gunner · #10 22-02-05, 00:34

Hi Guys:

The one Bob C is talking about is mine. It is a bog standard trailer GS, 4 wh, 2 ton which was in essence the start point of all the other 4 wh, 2 tonners. Turntable front axle steering which wore down the tyres much faster than Ackerman steering. Bog standard 15cwt rims, etc. I would bet that the bearings in the hubs are 15cwt but haven't looked yet.

The deck on mine is a Lindsay body transplanted from a 30 or 60 cwt by someone lost in the mists of time... it could have been an army job or a civi job, dunno. Later in its life, the walls were cut away leaving the Lindsay body floor complete with truck wheel wells and, for some bizarre reason, the fold down work bench was left in place (the big bit sticking up on one side. The other stuff on the deck is a signals line layer set for the Chev 5/4 tons of 1976 fame. I put it there to keep it off the ground.

If the price is right, snap that Sask wild flower up. These trailers are not often seen and its worth saving. The GS bodies were pretty simple and I have an example so can provide dimensions. Even easier would be the flat deck version with posts and chains (see Gregg's book for a photo as I still am not computer competent enough to post 'em).

Would go well behind a 15cwt or larger and with the flat deck can be used to carry vets, cadets, etc in parades!

Good luck whoever goes for it. Let me know and we can compare notes!

Cheers! Mike

Bob Carriere · #11 22-02-05, 04:33

Trying to relay a massage from a model T 'puter from the Isst Coast.... actually runs on Cod oil......

Quote:

hi bob, hope all is well. i tried to register at mlu to add to your discussion on military trailers, but no luck. ?(.....wonder why..?...Mr. moderator Bob C)....and the cat ate the shift key for upper case from poor Mikey's 'puter......

so, i figured i'd drop a line this way. you are correct about there being versions of this trailer with 13" wheels.....i have one, which was manufactured by eagle engineering...i think. it's in great shape, and still has it's original tires fitted10.50 x13"road tread, i also have the spare that came with it. up until i saw this posting, mine was the only one that had seemed to surface at least on the web. i'm sure there are tons of these in use on farms. mine was plucked from a local scrap yard about fifteen years ago by an uncle. currently, it get's used to haul lobster traps, and fishing gear. when the inlaws are finished with it, it will be landing at the maces bay motor pool for full restoration. i don't have a scanner, but jeff caldwell has a pic of this trailer that he could probably e mail you if interested...you guys in ontario...so high tech...my computer starts by hand crank like a model t, and has a smoke stack on the back.

cheers bob!!
mike

By golly I gun and dun it..... Nice hearing from you Mike.

Mike... if at all possible can you get some pictures of the 13" model.... if you can't post a picture draw me a sketch....teehee

Who else has seen or still know of some in existance......??

As for the Sask. model.... hope someone gets it....

Gunner · #12 22-02-05, 20:07

Hi Guys:

I'm assuming that's Mike McBard sending. Good to know that the Maritimers are keeping UP the traditions... wow... 13 inches! I'd like to see a photo to compare with my 16 incher.

Seriously, my reading has led me to believe that the earlier ones where done with the same 13 inch wheels as used on the Bofors and the 16 inch wheels were done later to standardise on automotive components.

A good photo of those rims and tyres would go a long way to confirming this... what say, Mike, can you stoke up enough steam power in your gravel crunching computer to send us a photo?

BTW, us Canadians have "transport sections" while our fine cousins to the south have "motor pools"... something about doing the annual swim test in 50,000 gallons of 10W30?

Thanks for the radio relay, Bob. Really enjoyed your visit on Sunday... hope you can make it out again when the weather is less painful!

Mike

Hanno Spoelstra · #13 22-02-05, 21:50

Quote:

Originally posted by Gunner
It is a bog standard trailer GS, 4 wh, 2 ton which was in essence the start point of all the other 4 wh, 2 tonners. Turntable front axle steering which wore down the tyres much faster than Ackerman steering. Bog standard 15cwt rims, etc.

See below for a picture scanned from Gregg's book showing the Trailer, 4-wh, 2-ton, GS. We need more Canadian-built trailers preserved, very few survive and not much is known about their wartime use.

Here's a link to a similar 4 wheel military trailer: for sale: WW2 5-ton 4-wheeled snowplough trailer.

Hanno
(proud owner of a Canadian Canadian 20-cwt GS Trailer, a.k.a. new toy)

Bob Carriere · #14 23-02-05, 04:53

....Mikey has confirmed that he has NO digital capabilities but Jeff in Chatsworth may have a hard copy picture that he was given a while back......

Jeff..... you asleep at the switch....??? me thinks they hibernate up there......

Hanno...... thanks for the picture..... I have seen fairly original totally enclosed.... sure looked original.... 16 inch wheeled trailers and have seen some just with a head board and pockets for posts..... one small wheel model was North of the Pickering Museum in a junk yard.... that one was in good shape and very complete but only the frame.... no upper structure.... all others were seen in the Ottawa area......

Some must have survived on farms around Ottawa....

Gunner.... yes really enjoyed my visit..... must go back for more photo shoots.... when the weather is more pleasant but before the bugs come out...... Thanks for the hospitality.

Snowtractor · #15 23-02-05, 05:36

I wonder if the bulk of the trailers were left in Europe as so much other kit was. If I were in charge of bringing some equipment home but leaving the majority behind , I would bring the newest and most useful stuff, so stuff with motors, tracks, etc., not trailers that couldn't move on their own and could be cheaply produced at home as the need arose...though I am not a government employee so I may think differently.

Sean

Gunner · #16 23-02-05, 17:19

Hi Sean:

Having been involved in some of these types of repatriations I can shed some light on the thinking process:

If the kit is cheaper to make than to ship halfway across the world then a tick goes in the "dump it" box, if it is well through its useful life, another tick, if it no longer meets our highway code, another tick (this is important for that type of trailer as they were more popular in Europe than in North America where loads approaching 5 ton were leaning towards articulated trailers or tag alongs that balanced the load over closely set axles); enough ticks and the stuff is given to allies (eg. Iltis to the Afghan security forces), sold off or scrapped. I wept as they cut M 113 1/2 Lynxes in Germany rather than bring them home. The only other country using them were the Dutch and thiers were all going to Gate Guards and range targets at the same time (NATO is now set on wheeled recce vehs).

All that to say you are most likely right and the only CMP trailers to be found in Canada are the ones already in service on bases at war's end or in stock awaiting shipping overseas.

Cheers, Mike

Snowtractor · #17 23-02-05, 17:32

...and useful, Mike, thanks. I know from years of experience that these carriage steer trailers are a dangerous mistress. I have seen many tipped over hay trailers and little red wagons. INteresting the new little read wagon has steering arms and tie rod ends to get rid of that tipping tendency. I thought I had heard that newer highway legal trailers could no longer be wagon steering, maybe it was a proposed law.
Sean

Gunner · #18 23-02-05, 17:49

Hi Sean:

Don't know about the changes to any CTC standards but I've noticed that the newer hay ricks around here have ackerman steering. One of the problems is that it is easy to overload wide spaced axle trailers and then the trailer gets its own harmonic going which can end up steering the tractor!

Worse than a tag-along with too much tongue loading!

I always thought that was why the British and Canadian Bofors used a narrower front axle... in order to save costs and production time they used wagon steering but compensated by using a narrower axle. An automotive engineer's opinion would be welcome. I can tell you that from a Gunner's point of view the narrower axle is a pain in the bum as you are creating another set of ruts and accompanying drag when you are going through mud, snow or sand. I've actually gotten the LAAT and Bofors stuck in our own backyard during the spring thaw... what a mess!

Cheers! Mike

Godwin Hampton · #19 02-03-05, 21:33

once a gunner always a gunner......
I too was a gunner in the Territorials for about one year, till we were disbanded in 1972. We still wore '49 pattern battledress at the time. Eventually I ended up getting me my own bofors, an ex-film prop Bristol Bofors ( Equipment 40 MM AA No.12 Land Service) which I de-modified back to original.
The 10.50-13 wheels mentioned with regard to the trailers are a completely different kettle of fish to the 9.00-13 tyres we have on the Bofors. The ply rating is much higher,as they were designed for very heavy duty,in fact six of these wheels were all that was needed to carry the 7.5 ton recovery trailer and its load. They were also used by Scammel for the driving wheels on the 3-wheeled Mechanical Horse and later Scarab tractors.

The wheels are also very different, thick truck divided rims rather than the light drop-well automotive rims

Up till today, I had always wondered why the Bofors/ Morris platform had such a narrow front track.......

Snowtractor · #20 02-03-05, 22:07

Well, it would appear that I own a trailer. So anyone in the Maple Creek area

Sean

Gunner · #21 02-03-05, 22:53

Hi Godwin:

Nice to hear from a fellow Bofors boy and follower of St Barbara; especially from the George Cross Island... As well as being an amateur military historian, I'm a scuba diver and have always wanted to visit and dive in Malta.

I was close a couple of years ago but couldn't fit Malta into my plans when I did a battlefield tour of Italy following the route of 1st Anti-Tank Regt RCA and 1st Fd Regt RCHA.

Perhaps one day I'll be knocking on your door asking to see your LAA gun!

For some photos of ours please visit our website: www.calnan.com/swords

Cheers and Ubique!

Mike

P.S. Thanks for the detail on the 10.50X13... I had thought they might simply be bigger tyres on the same rim.

Hanno Spoelstra · #22 02-03-05, 23:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Snowtractor
Well, it would appear that I own a trailer. So anyone in the Maple Creek area

Congrats with your new toy!
Surely your big honking pick-up is able to tow it home?

H.

Godwin Hampton · #23 02-03-05, 23:29

Gunner,you can knock on my door any time you like!

Took the virtual tour,and I must comment on the guide;
she's vera good, but she can be a real bitch!
Tell her thanks from me, anyway.

Malta was Bofors Country during WW2, but what amazes me is that the 3", 3.7" and 4.5" Heavy AA guns actually fired off more rounds than the Bofors guns! Remember that the Bofors had a great lead with regards to rate of fire, but there you are.

Malta's AA gunners ( Royal Artillery and Royal Malta Artillery ) were considered the deadliest on earth.....

RA Ubique

RMA Tutela Bellicae Virtutis ( Custodian of military prowess...or something to that effect )

Snowtractor · #24 03-03-05, 01:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Hanno Spoelstra
Congrats with your new toy!
Surely your big honking pick-up is able to tow it home?

Thanks much,
shame these things always have to be 2000miles away though

As for the pickup, it should be able to haul the trailer, and the quarter section it rests on, quite readily.
But with flat tires and questionable bearings and no lights or brakes and the type of steering , hauling this thing home isn't feasible. So the trailer will go on a trailer and either be stored in Calgary until August or stay where it is until august and then head to Winnipeg. I would love to run down and move it now and take mucho pictures but it would be an economic waste, unless I HAVE to move it no if ands or buts.
Sean

Snowtractor · #25 01-05-05, 05:35

tada! Well it is safe at the family farm for now. The trailer is one heavy b*#ch I tell you. Here is the data plate . Made by the Cusson bros. The gross weight is 10756lbs . The one thing I forgot to do in all the rush was measure the axle widths and length , grrrr. This would pretty much identify it as the trailers varied so much.
Sean

Snowtractor · #26 01-05-05, 05:41

NOw this should be the data plate. I should add that in my other photos it looks like the order no. is S-M 6409 or possibly 6403.

Snowtractor · #27 01-05-05, 05:51

of steel you say?

Snowtractor · #28 01-05-05, 07:40

This thing is incredibly well built with cable parking brake still there and 4 wheel hydraulic surge brake. The only thing mising is the hydraulic pump itself. THe lines ,brakes and hitch is all intact.

Snowtractor · #29 01-05-05, 07:41

Note the GM number

Snowtractor · #30 01-05-05, 07:45

I didn't see the convoy lights until I crawled under the trailer, the one remaining light (there are 2 mounts rt and left) . The wires lead to this switch.

underside left rear