The time has come the walrus said . . .

[Bill Murray]

And Stellan..........
The story behind your medal?????
Bill

PS: My Pat is cooking dinner for 15 people which is the only reason I can get on my PC on Christmas Day.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bill Murray


Just a few remembrances of my so happy time in your beautiful land.

That was Great Bill!

Why didn´t the US Government made you Ambassador to Sweden? You have forever changed my opinion on Americans.

I used to say: "There is not one single American that has understood Europe. In fact I doubt wether they understand anything outside their own native State".

But you just now proved that you understand Sweden perfectly. I remember the picture "The New Yorker". Sometimes I am like that myself:

"There is probably a world beyond Stockholm - and the name of that is Södertälje" (You of course already know, but for others Södertälje is a town 35 km south of Stockholm)".

Swedish girls --- hmm - I am married to a Dutch-Indonesian wich I wouldn´t swop for a Brigade of Swedish beauties.

No cheers from me - my favourite pub is CLOSED tonight! But on second thoughts - I have some beers in the fridge. So



Stellan

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
[B]
The story behind your medal?????
Bill

It is a rather long story - so blame yourself.

In 1990 I became a friend of Captain (Soviet Navy) Igor Amosow during a Conferense on Military History. I at that time worked as a Research Officer with Department of Military History with the General Staff College in Stockholm.

He had been Assistant Military Attaché in USA and Attaché in Algeria and on Cuba. He also made a period as "Advisor" to the Polish Navy - read real C-in-C Polish Navy.

After retiring from the Soviet Navy he became Professor with the Institute of Military History in Moscow. After the Soviet Union was dissolved there was "Glasnost" and "Perestrojka" all over the floor.

We now could start to cooperate with the Russians and they were eager to rewrite their history.

As Igor Amosow said:

"Russia - our country with an unpredictable future and an unpredictable past".

Anyhow I spent months in Russia and introduced Igor to the Swedish Naval Attaché, Captain Magnus Haglund (on the pic in civilian dress). Together we arranged that Igor could visit Sweden on several occasions and also teach at the General Staff Academy in Stockholm.

In 1999 I was Head of Division Military History and co-responsible for the Congress in Stockholm. The Institute of Military History awarded me this medal - i think on recommendations of Igor.

So that is the short version.

Stellan

P.S. In those days Russia in fact had an unpredictable history. For example Raoul Wallenberg:

For USD 50 you could see the room where Wallenberg was shot. For USD 100 you could see the guillotin with wich Wallenberg was beheaded. For USD 250 you was allowed to meet the Surgeon who gave Wallenberg the lethal injection. For USD 500 E t c, e t c.

Photo: Igor Amosow in his Moscow home wearing his old Captain´s uniform (which was just for show - his real rank in GRU was quite another one).

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bob Potter


I rather like what Marshal Timoshenko said when somebody asked a to-him inane question:

"We have won enough ground to bury our dead."

Bob!

I looked through my archieves and found him. Here he is (with European spelling) Marshal of the Soviet Union Semion Timosjenko. Who against Finnish resistance. A Finnish proverb in WW 2:

"A Finnish soldier is equal to ten Russians. But what does he do when the eleventh Russian comes?"

Stellan

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Which US generals did or said this:

1) Was a Field Marshal.

2) Had a mistress locked in for years in their Washington home.

3) Beleived that President Truman still just was a WW 1 Captain in the Artillery reserve.

4) Said that Dwight D. Eisenhower once was his best clerk.

5) Wanted to drop a third nuclear bomb.

6) Wrote this that could still today be read on a stone portal in West Point:

"Upon the fields of friendly strife
Are sown the seeds
That upon other fields on other days
Will bear the fruits of victory".

7) As COS of "Rainbow Division" (?) and Col got a Distinguished Service Cross.

8) Had a father who held a high position in another US-related country wich he himself also achieved.

9) Was the teacher of Col Eisenhower in the art of dramatic behaviour.

10) As a Brigadier General commanded 84th Inf Bde in France and received the Distingiushed Service Medal.

So there are ten questions. Please come up with an answer.

The Old Walrus wishes.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Could you survive another Mannerheim?

Field Marshal Mannerheim did not understand much of Tactics, Operations or Strategy. But he was a master of Politics and a Great Leader.

He had eight brains - just because he as a Leader knew how to use them. Knowing that he himself was inferior in Military Planning, he allways sent for the senior staff in his HQ.

He presented the problem and sat down in his leather chair enjoying a Fennia cigarette. He told his staff to propose solutions. The youngest in rank should begin. The oldest should be the last to answer.

The Colonels and Generals talked and the Marshal listened carefully. After thinking a while he said:

- I share the opinion of General Airo. Carry out his plan!

General Airo was immune to panic. His favourite answer when people were upset and afraid was Ei hätä ole tämän näköinen -a disaster does not look like this.

Photo: MjGen Axel Fredrik Airo, C Ops Finnish HQ, Mannerheim´s master mind.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

In 1979 I met an US Senator in Stockholm. I am not telling his name because he is a friend. Anyhow we talked about the Soviets that invaded Afghanistan.

I told him of Finlands war 1939-40. He replied:

- When did Finland fight a war?

Later I mailed him a book so now he know about all the wars Finland fought and especially the four during the 20th century.

The Finnish-Soviet Winter War 30th November 1939 to 13th March 1940 is in my opinion the Greatest military achievement in WW 2.

A country with some 3 miljon inhabitants and 9 divisions for 105 days stood up against 200 miljon Russians and 120 divisions.

One of the architects behind this was General Rudolf Walden. He attended Finnish Military Academy 1892-1900 but did not stay in the Army. In 1918 he was running a factory. Mannerheim selected him as Chief of logistics despite his limited military background.

He became Mannerheim´s closest friend. For many years sucessful Minister of Defence. But he suffered a bad fate. First his two sons were KiA and then he got a stroke. He was not able to communicate although his mind was still clear.

A horrible fate for such a good man. He should not be forgotten.

Photo: As a MjGen 1939.

[Bill Murray]

Morning Stellan:
Your General was Douglas MacArthur, truly a remarkable man who was either loved or hated and not much in between.

I got as a Christmas present a video of Oliver North's "War Stories" segment on the Pusan Perimeter battle and the amphibious landing at Inchon, which is still considered a classic military excercise that succeeded in spite of almost overwhelming difficulties.

Yes, quite a unique individual.
Bill

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bill Murray

Your General was Douglas MacArthur, truly a remarkable man who was either loved or hated and not much in between.

Yes, right you are Bill!

I thought I could trick somebody to beleive it was ten different US Generals - - but in vain.

I belong to these that as a general rule dislike MacArthur.

But I give him credit for two things:

1) The way he handeld the ockupation of Japan.
2) Inchon.

Stellan

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

He once said this:

"My men can eat their belts - but my tanks gotta have gas!"

Under heavy critisism in US media for keeping ex-nazis working with the ocupation government in Germany post WW 2 he said:

"I prefer to have the German people fed by ex-nazis instead of starving to death in a democratic way".

He visited Sweden in 1912 and 1946. In 1946 he visited the 8th Inf Regt in Uppsala and Royal Military Academy Karlberg in Stockholm.

Seeing the 8th Inf Regt Colours and beeing told the history of the Swedish Army he said:

"Hell, those guys were waging war already before Columbus discovered America!"

But what did he do in Sweden in 1912?

[Bill Murray]

I know the answer, Stellan but will let someone alse answer.
He is one of my favorite generals and if had had his way might have been another of those that changed the history of Europe.
I am sure you know what I am referring to.
Bill

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
I know the answer, Stellan but will let someone alse answer.

Yes, I beleive you. Since you are a "honorary Swede" you ought to know.

So I will give you a more difficult one. Just one clue: Summer 1944.

Now I am off to see my son hand his family.

Stellan

[Bob Potter]

Good Morning and Happy Boxing Day!

Patton was too easy. I must be the only American who has a negative opinion of Patton due to my father's experience with him in Hawaii in the 1930's before Patton became "His Guts and Our Blood." Dad's favorite story involves Patton being told to take his boots off by Hugh A. Drum, the C-in-C of the Hawaiian Department.

The Winter War has been one of my military history fascinations ever since I saw Walter Cronkite's old "Twentieth Century" episode on it. The footage was amazing, even on the old family black-and-white TV. I have read everything I can find, even old Time and Life magazine feature articles from the time.

Glad to see Gus Adolf appear here even if briefly. He is responsible (even if he did not live to see it) for the Finnish-Swedish settlement of my home state of Delaware. If you look closely, you can still find Swedish and Finnish names around here.

Hate to interrupt your throughly fascinating history lesson, but I had a World War II question, and I ask as an historian and history teacher, and NOT to set off a firestorm. Many years ago, I read that during the war, Sweden continued to sell nickel ore to Germany. In 1992, I had a Swedish exchange student in one of my history classes. When I told the class that when discussing neutrality in my WWII unit, she got a little rattled (Johanna looked like Liv Ullmann, only as a redhead, and was very charming -- and very smart). When she called home awhile later she asked her parents about. She said, "They rather sheepshily and unwillingly admitted that it was so." Can you elaborate?

Keep up the history lesson; it's great stuff.

Bob Potter

[Bob Potter]

Stefan,

Read William Manchester's "American Caesar," which is a finely crafted biography of MacArthur. It gave me these two important perspectives:

1. Macarthur was very sparing of the lives of his soldiers whenever possible. He abhorred the tactics of island-hopping. Manchester's look at his 1944 Philippines campaign is enlightening.

2. MacArthur constantly admonished American presidents to avoid a war on the Asian land mass, particularly after his Korean War experience. I like Manchester's logic that, had Kennedy not been assassinated, the US might not have gotten sucked into Vietnam. Johnson hated Kennedy so much that he seems to have done the opposite of anything Kennedy did.

It has been awhile since I read "American Caesar," and new scholarship may have altered some of these perspectives, but they made god sense to me when I read them.

Bob

[Bill Murray]

Wow, so many questions all at once.

You are of course right about identifying Patton but skipped one of the other questions. Patton went to Sweden in 1912 as a member of the US Olympic team. It has been too long since I read the stuff about it but I know he was a keen fitness buff and a world class horseman so it was probably in one of these two areas that he competed in.

As to the nickel ore question, I will leave it to Stellan to tell the larger story but I can assure you that Sweden supplied Germany rather a lot of things, particularly in the earlier years of WW II.
I have two excellent books, "Petsamo Trafiken" and "Tysk Trafiken" which detail the very large effort on the part of The Swedish Transport Association (loose translation) to organize hauling by truck all sorts of goods and such to Petsamo as well as other locations in Finland. One item I remember was the transporting of pre-fabricated huts or houses for German Forces stationed in Finland.

Having said that, and not wanting to defend Sweden for it is not necessary in my mind, rather a lot of "neutral" countries supplied goods to both sides , including our own country prior to Dec 7 1941. Sometimes you do what you have to do to survive and not be occupied or attacked.

As you are an historian, I am sure that you are aware that virtually every high ranking officer regardless of branch of service has lobbied with the Department of Defense and the various Presidents since ~1950 to discourage them from engaging in combat in Asia. As well, the current crop of flag rank officers almost to a man were against the invasion of Iraq for rather similar reasons and have proven to at least have been correct in their assessment that it would not be a cakewalk. It is one thing to knock out an army and leave and quite another to occupy a country like Iraq or any country in Asia.

Got to run for now but I would like to keep the dialogue going, this is fascinating stuff to me too.
Bill

[Bill Murray]

Stellan:
Regarding your last photo, I am really guessing here but could it be Vinegar Joe Stillwell of the CBI theatre?
I seem to recall he made some pretty interesting remarks too but I cannot remember them for the moment. I have a book about him buried somewhere in the cellar.
Bill

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Starting with Nickel I am proud to swear that the only thing Sweden did not supply to Germany was nickel - for one obvious reason - there is no nickel in Sweden.

The nickel came - as Bill indicated - from Petsamo in Finland.

Patton was the best non-Swede in pentathlon in the 1912 Olympic games. And a hell of a horseman.

The picture - Some more clues:

Sapian July 1944. Right Adm Raymond Spruance CO 5th Fleet, middle MjGen Watson CO 2nd Div.

Question: Standing left CO 5th Amphibious Corps. Give me his nickname please.

Picture: "Hollywood goes to war". Joe Rosentahl of AP arranged this re-enactment wich became world famous.

Iwo Jima of course - but what is the name of the mountain?

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bob Potter


1. Macarthur was very sparing of the lives of his soldiers whenever possible.

2. MacArthur constantly admonished American presidents to avoid a war on the Asian land mass.

Thank yoy Bob! I will buy those two and add it on my positive MacArthur list.

Thinking of Vietnam I remember this rather sad thing that happened just some months ago.

I was sitting in my favourite pub when an old friend living in our block came in and asked for a beer. He served in 1st Cav Regt in Stockholm with the Military Police. Later he served with US Army in Vietnam. After returning to Sweden he was employed as a Custodian for 1st Inf Reg Training Area.

- Stellan, I want you to have these medals.
- But why?
- I was considering throwing them into the waste bucket - but then I thought that you perhaps would like to have them.
- But why?
- In the Swedish Military Police i learnt to exercise my duty in a correct and worthy way. That my brother and I did in Vietnam. I was proud until today. When I now learn what those guys are doing in a prison in Bagdad - I am ashamed and I refuse to wear medals issued by a Government that is allowing such things to happen.
- You shouldn´t blame yourself. You never served in Iraq.
- Hah!I was never a member of the Nazi party. I have heard that earlier. I tried to keep our Honour clean - but now they have stained not only their own but also mine.
- But still - you qualified for your medals long before that.
- Yes, and I learnt to be a decent soldier even earlier. So accept my medals as a representative for the Army that thaught me to act with humanity and integrety also during a war.

I have vauge ideas of what these medals are. But please tell me a) the correct names and b) why they are issued.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Vinegar Joe Stillwell

Bill, you made me remember this of Vinegar Joe. He was going to a planning meeting.

"In order to get into the right mood for that meeting I went down to the zoo and watched the monkeys".

Thinking of MacArthur sparing soldiers lives I remember that I allways tried to teach my soldiers this:

"Don´t kill the enemy - just injure him. If you kill an enemy soldier you kill just one. If you injure him you disable five - one wounded and four stretcher bearers".

Photo: Iwo Jima - the real picture before the re-enactment was done.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bob Potter


Glad to see Gus Adolf appear here even if briefly. He is responsible (even if he did not live to see it) for the Finnish-Swedish settlement of my home state of Delaware. If you look closely, you can still find Swedish and Finnish names around here.

On 8th April 1938 these stamps were issued to celebrate the Swedish settlement in Delaware 300 years earlier.

WW 2:

Sweden did not export nickel but iron ore to Germany. This the allies were aware of. Sweden needed coal and oil to survive. So the Swedish position was:

1. Telling the allies: "If you don´t accept that we are trading iron ore for coal from Germany - you force us to join Germany in the war".

2. Telling the Germans: "If you don´t allow us to have an open sea-link to the allies and import oil - we cannot produce iron ore for you".

[Bill Murray]

Morning fellows:

OK, Stellan, Holland M "Howlin Mad" Smith. The photo threw me a bit because it makes him look rather thin which he was not.
Another very quotable individual but that book, too is buried somewhere.

Thanks for the info on Patton I figured it was something like the pentathlon. I think he finished fifth or something like that.
Bill

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bill Murray

As well, the current crop of flag rank officers almost to a man were against the invasion of Iraq for rather similar reasons and have proven to at least have been correct in their assessment that it would not be a cakewalk. It is one thing to knock out an army and leave and quite another to occupy a country like Iraq or any country in Asia.

Yes, Bill, I am sad to say that I think the US administration have created a new Vietnam themselves by:

1. Dissolving the Iraqi Armed Forces (many thousends of soldiers lost their salaries and have nothing else to do than forming guerilla units).

2. Dissolving the Baath party (and thereby destroying the civil administration).

3. Thinking that air bombing is a medicin that could cure all problems (and thereby destroying the infra-structure).

It is easy to be wise afterwards but I think like this:

1. No "strategic" bombings on infra-structure. Only tactical bombings in the combat zone.

2. Baath party officials (except for war criminals) should remain in office and attend a weekly two hours lecture in democracy.

3. Iraqi Armed Forces (except for war criminals) should remain armed and made responsible for internal security supervised by US personell.

Photo: HRH Prince Bertil in Delaware 1938. As I understand there is a village somewhere in the US named Stockholm.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bill Murray
Holland M "Howlin Mad" Smith. The photo threw me a bit because it makes him look rather thin which he was not.

Yes, Bill, you are quite right in all respects. I was also amazed that "Howlin Mad" looks so thin. On other pictures he is close to fat.

But who said this upon seeing the Banner flying from mount XXX:

"Holland, the raising of that flag means a Marine Corps for the next five hundred years".

Photo: Changing the flags on Iwo Jima. The real one coming down, the "Hollywood version" going up.

[Bill Murray]

Hallo again Stellan:

This is my first day off since Nov. 25th and I've so much to catch up on but I am trying to hang in there with you so I don't get too far behind.

Your friend was obviously quite a man and please tell him so for me if you see him again. The medal on the left is the Army Commendation Medal for sustained bravery or outstanding performance of duty in a combat zone. Even more impressive is the one on the right which is the Bronze Star, the fourth highest US decoration for individual bravery. Your friend may have some stories to tell too.

As a side note and this is something I have discussed with GWB in various PMs (He is a big fan of the USMC). My own Dad refused to wear his Vietnam decorations on his uniform. As he was the Deputy Commander of the MEF, he saw no real "action" and the medals were theatre, campaign or honorary ones but even so he would not wear them due to his opposition to the way the war was waged.

The quote about the Marine Corps being around for another 300 years I have seen but forgotten who said it. I believe it was one of the top Admirals of the time but could be wrong. There is, by the way a lot more to come. After WW II, Harry Truman tried very hard to get rid of the Marine Corps and almost succeeded. I would imagine the Koreans are glad he failed in this endeavour.

To stop for a moment, I am sensitive about going on too far about the politics of various engagements such as Viet Nam and Iraq so will ask guidance from the moderators here. I support fully that the Sergeant's Mess is for general historical discussion but I don't want to offend anyone with my personal views. On the other hand, I guess it qualifies as history now, at least Viet Nam does, so maybe I should not worry about it too much and I do have some interesting notes from my father's papers and our discussions.

You will very much enjoy the book American Caeser by the way as it is quite well written and I thought treated MacArthur fairly honestly, both the good and the bad.
Cheers
Bill

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Thank you Bill!

Yes I have read and enjoyed "American Caesar" and also MacArthurs memoires.

I earlier quoted wrong. I have corrected it in the post above. It was five hundred - not three hundred - years.

The man who said this was Secretary of the Navy James Forrestal.

I got interested in Iwo Jima during my very short tour with USMC University in Quantico. I was staying in Liversedge quarters. So I had to learn who Harry "the Horse" Liversedge was and that brought me to the 28th Marines and Iwo Jima.

Picture: The Scandinavian officers group leaving USMC University. Myself standing far right.

[Frank Misztal]

Originally posted by Stellan Bojerud
...

I have vauge ideas of what these medals are. But please tell me a) the correct names and b) why they are issued.

Stellan, the medals you have displayed are:

1)Army Commendation Medal

2)Bronze Star Medal

Frank sends ...

[Jon Skagfeld]

Stellan:

Mount Suribachi.

Next...Liversedge at Quantico!

What an amazing co-incidence.

I spent a bit of time there in 2002 during a cross border study of fire and movement related to the Battle of Chancellorsville.

We toured the area...Ely's Ford, Catherine Furnace, the fork in the road where Lee and Jackson discussed their next plan of action, Zoan Church on the Plank Road.

The capper was when our tour guide showed us exactly where Jackson got shot by his own troops because he was forward of his own skirmish line. "Let me go forth and rest in peace on the other side..."

Had it not been for this unfortunate circumstance, Gettysburg, two weeks hence, most likely would have been a different story.

Stellan, did you get a chance to have a few ales in the Laurel and Anchor, just outside Quantico?

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Thank you Frank for info on the medals. I was interest ed especially in the criterias.

No, Jon. I never got to the Laurel and Anchor. Normally I just went to the Officers Club discussing the Civil War with an USMC Colonel - I think his name is Walker.

Anyhow I think US press wrote that Iwo Jima was the "worst since Gettysburg". 6.821 dead, 19.217 wounded and 2.648 combat fatigue.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

I think Iwo Jima is probably the best example of a combined operation.

1. The need for Iwo Jima
The Ground Forces (Army & USMC) had no interest in Iwo Jima
The Navy had no interest in Iwo Jima
The Airforce needed Iwo Jima as an airbase for the final assault on Japan

2. Getting there
The Navy had the ships reguired

3. Getting ashore
The USMC could make a landing

4. So ---
The Navy brought the Ground Forces there. USMC and later also Army units took the island because the Airforce needed it.

[Stellan Bojerud (RIP)]

Originally posted by Bob Potter


The Winter War has been one of my military history fascinations ever since I saw Walter Cronkite's old "Twentieth Century" episode on it. The footage was amazing, even on the old family black-and-white TV. I have read everything I can find, even old Time and Life magazine feature articles from the time.

Yes, Bob, Finlands 105 days of Winter War is fascinating. As Josef Stalin put it: "The Finns are a slow-thinking people. You have to knock sense into them using a hammer". He tried to do that.

I beleive one of the greatest military achievments during WW 2 was the battle of Suomussalmi.

1. Feeling the treath from the Soviet Union Finland called up their reserves for "extra refrescher training". In Suomussalmi the 15th Independent Infantry Bn (LtCol Kyander) was mobilized 10th - 14th October 1939.

2. On Thursday 30th November 1939 at 08H05 LtCol Kylander got a message that Soviet troops were crossing the border at Raate. Suomussalmi was situated some 30 km from the Border. At 10H00 a message was received that the Soviets also crossed the border at Juntusranta.

3. The border defence was weak. North of Suomussalmi one Platoon (2Lt Elo) in Juntusranta. To the east a Detachment (1Lt Lehto) of two Platoons (WO Räisänen and Sgt Ojanne respectively).

4. These Platoons fought delaying operations against Soviet 163rd Inf Div for a week.

5. On Thursday 7th December the Soviet troops entered the village of Suomussalmi. The 15th Inf Bn reinforced by 4th Training Bn took up defence south of the village.

6. On the same day Col Siilasvuo (Swedish name Strömberg) received order to reorganize 27th Inf Regt as a Brigade and to take command in Suomussalmi.

Picture: Col Hjalmar Siilasvuo (left) with COS Cpt Alpo Kullervo Marttinen (right) who post WW 2 became a Colonel in the US Army.