Another Mk.I Canadian colour question

[Ron Pier]

I'm not trying to argue with anyone, just pointing out my own observations. You've reiterated what I've said about variations in shades from different manufacturers. Not to mention mixing old stock colours with new.

I needed to respray a vehicle panel recently and found that I have seven partly used tins of BS 298 Olive drab from different firms and none of them match at all!! Seriously! If modern firms can't get it the same by using the same formula, what chance is there of getting a match from a 70 year old recipe?

My advice is to chose a colour that you like and get it mixed as near as poss, but get enough done for future use. My experience is that the same firm using the same formula will give you a different shade.

It's the same with household paint from B&Q.

Ron

[chris vickery]

Ron
You are right on the mark. Anyone who has ever undertaken a painting project in their own home can attest to matching paint. We have all run a gallon short and run down to the paint store to get another mixed only to find it slightly off...
I am sure back in the day manufacturers were buying paint in bulk and I would bet money on it that colour varied from batch to batch, especially during wartime conditions. Not quite the same as today where it can be sent back because its off spec.
When I did my 12 cab Ford, I painted it in Lightstone.
Some NOS parts I found were in this colour and even they varied in tone...

[Richard Farrant]

This is why paint manufacturers always say if you are doing a big job to ensure all the paint has the same batch number.

When was working for army workshops, we would have lines of vehicles on the park, for instance a long row of Bedford MK's and although all were painted in the same shade of IRR green, every one of them looked different. This would be down to age of paint, whether it had dirt ingrained in it, wiped over with an oily rag, painted by brush which came out different to spraying, etc.

I have found a large area of SCC No.2 Brown on a vehicle that was inside and covered, this was matched by a paint company and was exactly what I wanted, but bet your life when the vehicle stands next to another they will look different!

[Tony Wheeler]

At the risk of disagreeing I suspect we greatly overstate batch variation during WWII, as a convenient excuse for our own inability to achieve batch consistency, and our failure to even attempt standardization across the MV community. This is not intended as criticism - a host of factors conspire against us here, which did not apply in WWII.

One of these factors is our miniscule batch size, which multiplies the required accuracy of tinter measurement by many orders of magnitude. For example, one pint of yellow tinter in a 10,000 gallon production batch would probably equate to a fraction of a droplet in a 4 gallon batch. No paint shop machine can measure tinter that accurately, which is why house paint varies from batch to batch, despite being mixed to the factory formula. Another factor is continuous production, which enables continuous matching, and even mixing with the previous batch to achieve consistency. These techniques are simply not available in small batch production. Another factor of course is expertise and equipment - there's no comparison between the local paint shop proprietor and a team of scientists at the factory lab.

On the question of wartime conditions compromising batch consistency, this runs counter to our general expectation of milspec production, ie. more stringent than civilian production. Unless there's some particular "wartime" reason for long established companies to suddenly experience quality control problems not faced in peacetime, there's no reason to assume they did. The reality in wartime is technological improvement, not the opposite.

Rather than assume wartime inconsistency I think we need to recognize the enormous hurdles we face as restorers - miniscule batch size, complete absence of colour standards, reliance on 70 year old paintwork, etc. etc. We simply can't hope to approach the batch consistency achieved in large scale commercial production, any more than a homebrewer can approach the batch consistency achieved by large commercial brewers. Nor does it really matter, as Ron says - the only imperative is that you're happy with the colour yourself. Likewise your homebrew!

[Phil Waterman]

Hi Tony

Agree that batch size may play a major part in consistency. Over the years I've noticed that paint mixed in gallons is more likely to match than pints even when mixed by the same person.

But having said that there is another really key issue the word "MIXED" probably to many of us take too little time mixing / stirring paint. Once we have taken any paint from a can that is not really mixed all hope of the paint matching is pretty much over.

Also different colors are easier to get good match like light stone is easier than olive drab. Just as some paint will fade quicker.

Cheers Phil

[eddy8men]

the paint arrived yesterday and I had a chance to fiddle around with different mixes of U.S. light olive drab, very dark olive drab and a red oxide primer (to brown it) and I've come to the conclusion this will be more difficult than I thought
the colour on the left is light drab, right side is half dark, half light, centre top is the original and just to the left is the mix with a bit of red oxide, which looks nice but isn't right. I will have another go tomorrow. i'm going to persevere until I get it right

[RichardT10829]

Take the plate into chroma dex.... They will match it....

[Richard Farrant]

Originally Posted by eddy8men

the paint arrived yesterday and I had a chance to fiddle around with different mixes of U.S. light olive drab, very dark olive drab and a red oxide primer (to brown it) and I've come to the conclusion this will be more difficult than I thought
the colour on the left is light drab, right side is half dark, half light, centre top is the original and just to the left is the mix with a bit of red oxide, which looks nice but isn't right. I will have another go tomorrow. i'm going to persevere until I get it right

Hi Rick,
These paints take time to cure and can look dark when first painted but after a period of weeks, they dull down. Don't be too hasty. When you open a tin and stir it, it is not going to show its true colour until it has dried and cured with all the solvents gone.

cheers Richard

[stephen crowhurst]

Hello Richard

Was hand painting quite common.
After watching the film They Were Not Divided where they were hand painting there tanks white when the snow came so presume in the field this was the norm.

Thanks Stephen

[eddy8men]

hey Richie if I took it to cromadex that would be cheating, however it's always an option and if I can't crack it today I will go to my local branch and get them to sort it. the other advantage is I can order as much or as little as I want.

[RichardT10829]

Also if you are painting green on green it will come out dark... Do a test peice and try different colour primers... Along with a section on bare metal. If you get the desired colour on the bare metal you know to add lighter tints to the blend, or add chromate etch compound to the colour you have, and forgo primer (not the best method though)

[eddy8men]

lol just rang my local cromadex agent and got some shirty bird telling me they don't deal with the public, so I guess that's out then

[Tony Wheeler]

Originally Posted by Phil Waterman

there is another really key issue the word "MIXED" probably to many of us take too little time mixing / stirring paint. Once we have taken any paint from a can that is not really mixed all hope of the paint matching is pretty much over.

I agree Phil, esp. if the can is left undisturbed for months/years. Invariably the tinter settles to the bottom in a thin layer and must be scraped off and lifted up somehow. It can't be done in a few minutes with a stirring stick, and most people lack the required patience. I remember old timers storing paint tins upside down, which eliminates skin formation and also enables tinter to be easily and thoroughly brushed off the lid and back into the can for mixing.