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  #31  
Old 15-09-20, 00:53
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Quote:
This may be of help:
Thanks Hanno; I visit the Archives website regularly.

These are the ones to study:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/C4440973
https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/C4440950

It says you can send a request for a quotation for a copy of the documents. Some members on ww2talk also offer to scan items in the National Archives; I just don't know the current options given the Covid troubles.


The recommendation for William Hall is available online though
https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/C9050525
It does describe his actions at Overloon, but sadly there are no details on the name or census number of his tank.
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  #32  
Old 15-09-20, 10:50
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
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Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering View Post
And some pictures of the inside.
I hope you don’t mind me posting these, in which I think the scarring is much easier to see:

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The fact that the internal bracing has also bent in that last photo to me points to a projectile rather than a shaped charge striking it. I would more expect it to have simply been gouged out with a shaped charge. It also shows the downward angle: the damage to the brace is slightly below the hole in the hull side.
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  #33  
Old 15-09-20, 12:37
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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I hope you don’t mind me posting these, in which I think the scarring is much easier to see:
Well, I would have preferred if you had asked me first, than at the very least I could have added a watermark. Also at least one of the pics is the same....and the other failed to upload last night.
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  #34  
Old 15-09-20, 12:37
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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I wonder how well the lower area of the interior has been cleaned over the years and if any of the things found there were kept by the museum?

Two things can happen with a solid shot round striking armour. At the very least, one hopes the energy transfer is great enough to spall a chunk of inside hull free to fly into the interior to do damage to crew and equipment. As the size and energy behind the round increases, full penetration of the hull will occur and the round itself will bounce around inside the hull, greatly increasing the damage risk to everyone and thing inside, until the energy is spend and the round falls to the floor, spent. Given enough size and energy, of course, the round will pass right through the vehicle struck.

Alex mentions no sign of exit holes on the left side of the hull, so if we are looking at 15 to 20mm round penetrations, and they all came at roughly the same time, there would have been a lot of metal flying around the interior of Avalon for several seconds. Unless lodged in soft metal somewhere, if would eventually fall to the floor.

If the brace on the right side is bent, and relates to the flail drive, could the damage be part of the overall effects of the Crab hitting a mine?

Mine fields typically have set patterns/spacing for maximum effect for a given number of mines. If mines are set in a cluster too close together, hitting one can trigger more in the group. That might have happened with AVALON, breaking the flail and the track on the right side. Depending on why she was at that location during the battle, the crew may have successfully abandoned AVALON. A short while later, a German vehicle arrives on the scene, assumes an active enemy vehicle has been spotted and fires a sweeping burst of cannon fire at it until realizing the Crab is already out of action and moves on.

Another possibility could be mines took the flail out somewhere else. AVALON was on the move to withdraw when she struck another mine that broke her track and she was abandoned.

One other point to consider. There are anti tank mines and anti personnel mines. It is not unusual for infantry to be able to move through an anti tank mine field because not enough weight hits the mine triggers. Leading infantry can walk an anti tank mine field without spotting anything and then wave vehicles through, only to watch as the mines start going off. Be interesting to know if there is enough energy in an anti personnel mine to break a tank track link and cause little other damage. AVALON could have been used to clear any type of mine field in a hurry, not just anti tank, so anything is possible without more detail.

Maybe some answers are still sitting at the bottom of AVALON?

David
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  #35  
Old 15-09-20, 12:58
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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I wonder how well the lower area of the interior has been cleaned over the years and if any of the things found there were kept by the museum?
David, when I was in the tank 10 years ago, the lower half of the tank was still filled with all sorts of litter from museum visitors; soda cans, snack packages and the like. I don't think the tank was cleaned all that often.....and they just closed up the hatches (except the escape hatch) to prevent visitors from entering (I am guessing somewhere in the 80's). However, I am sure a lot of stuff in the interior got damaged over the years in the museum from visitors breaking and stealing stuff, but also under influence from weather.
I am not aware of any remaining bits of Avalon in storage in the museum. The engine did get removed somewhere in the 90's/2000's and was in storage until a few years ago. It has since been sold and will hopefully power a restored Firefly soon.

I think both your suggestions on the final minutes of Avalon sound plausible.

Quote:
If the brace on the right side is bent, and relates to the flail drive, could the damage be part of the overall effects of the Crab hitting a mine?
I think the brace was either damaged by rounds coming through the sides, or from an internal explosion of ammunition. I don't think damage to the flail itself could result in damage to the brace.

Regarding mine damage; I read somewhere that when the Germans also had a habit of fixing an extra mine or extra explosives to a mine in order to increase the blast disabling flail tanks.
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  #36  
Old 15-09-20, 17:12
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Me again, Alex. Your worst nightmare.

Take a look at the photos of the flail beam in Posts 29 and 32 that you and Jakko added to this thread. Doesn’t it look odd such a large gap to the outside is visible through the right side hull? My gut tells me that gap should not be there.

To my tired eyes, there looks like a shadow outline around the edge of that hole which matches very closely to the heavy metal flange surrounding that beam. I think that flange was originally welded up against the inside of the hull and some external force has broken it free and driven it inwards about 4 or so inches.

If you take a look at the forward side images of that beam, there is a penetration hole with a slightly downward and inward angle. It looks like if that flange was flush with the inner hull, whatever penetrated the hull at that point, also put a notch into the flange beside the entry hole?

That would suggest the penetration hole preceded whatever event broke the beam free and pushed it inwards. It might also mean the large hole in the beam that entered the beam from the rear side and exited the front, may have happened when that part of the beam was still outside the vehicle.

David
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  #37  
Old 15-09-20, 17:33
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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The damaged hull brace mentioned above (just to the rear of the flail drive chain case) is part of the standard Sherman hull and I have no doubt that it was damaged by projectiles that penetrated near it and then hit it. It is not made of armour so would be relatively easily damaged (or repaired again !). The only damage that I see to the flail drive chain case is clearly from projectiles / shrapnel, not from mechanical failure of the drive.

Internal ammunition explosions usually result in the turret being blown off or at the very least a catastrophic fire. I see no evidence of either.

I doubt that an anti personnel mine would break a track but it is certainly not impossible. If an anti tank mine broke the track there would be obvious significant damage to the floor and probably the front bogie.

As for the angle of the penetrations, I doubt that the tank would have been on exactly level ground or at the same level as the gun firing at it. Also if it did loose it's right track before being fired at, the right side of the tank would have dropped as it rolled off the broken track by about 7cm on a hard surface and at least 30cm if the ground was at all soft.

David
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  #38  
Old 15-09-20, 17:52
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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I have just cross posted with David D.
The "flail beam" he refers to is just a casing that encases the flail drive chain that takes the drive from the input shaft flange at the back of the tank transmission to the outside of the RH upper hull. There are no gears involved until the gearbox on the end of the flail drum., just chain drives and the universal jointed shaft on the RH boom. The case has not moved away from the side of the hull. That flange is just the join between the two sections of the case to allow it to be assembled into the hull. The gap between the case and the oversized hole in the hull is because the hole is quite crudely hand cut by oxy-acetylene torch in the side of a complete tank, not in a proper factory setting so was cut oversize to allow some latitude in accuracy. The gap is protected by the armoured box on the outside.

Once a projectile has penetrated the outer hull, it could be going in almost any direction so do not infer anything from where it goes next or the internal damage.

David
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  #39  
Old 15-09-20, 17:55
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Me again, Alex. Your worst nightmare.
don't worry...I enjoy this kind of brainstorming very much!

There is indeed a gap between the chain drive case and the hole in the right side of the hull. I know from the crab manual (and I think also from the one Crab in Bovington), that this gap is supposed to be covered with steel blocks/plate, although I am not sure if all Crabs had this, or only later production ones.
The chain box is also fixed on the outside of the hull through springs to an angle iron. This fixation is still present on the Overloon example, so I don't think the gear is pushed inwards. The flange you see in the pictures is a flage to connect to pieces of the chain drive box together, it's not supposed to be flush with the inside of the hull sidewall.
The part of the chain case on the outside of the tank does shows some damage with the rearmost panel bent inwards. I always thought this was a result of the drive shaft snapping, but it could well be that this is indeed damage from projectiles.


Quote:
Internal ammunition explosions usually result in the turret being blown off or at the very least a catastrophic fire. I see no evidence of either.
Thanks David.....exactly my thought. The story is that Avalon was put out of action by a Panzerfaust that ignited some of the ammunition inside. At least that's the story that is spread on the web and probably also in the museum.
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  #40  
Old 15-09-20, 18:34
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Alex.

I whole-heartedly agree with the importance of finding War Diaries for the British Army units using Crabs at Overloon, to clearly establish who lost what, where and when. It would be great to have enough detail in the diaries that the lost equipment was identified by WD Number and or Name, if not in the daily reports, perhaps the status summaries that were submitted back up the system showing what was lost, damaged and in for repairs from time to time.

Currently, while doing Family Genealogy research in various archives in England that have no on-line access, I am finding many of them are either running with very low staffing or are closed even to staff to do research. That might be a similar situation for the archives you would need to work with.

Closer to home, however, you might be able to do some useful research outside the traditional military domain, that might help confirm the exact location of where AVALON came to rest.

Hanno recently posted some updates on COOKIE confirming it was brought in from another area and parked close to AVALON in the early stages of the evolution of the museum. Lets assume that was done as the easier option at the time, than trying to move AVALON, and the location of where AVALON is resting in those early photographs, is indeed her final resting place. If that final resting place can be located and confirmed, that is invaluable information for confirming what might be found in any War Diaries. Lets also assume for now, AVALON came to rest not too far from the current museum location.

If you look at the early photos, to the far left of AVALON in the background, there is a long, prominent ridge. It is hard to see details in a couple of the photos, but in one, the Sun is at a low enough angle to throw some good shadows that suggest the ridge has a number of finger-like protrusions extending from it. AVALON is definitely in a low spot in the foreground and in a couple of photos showing the background to the right side of AVALON, a smoother rise is noticeable.

What I am wondering about is the history of the Overloon Battle area. Was it/is it private land, or has it always been owned and managed by some level of local or national government, like a Forestry Department, Bureau of Natural Resources or some other agency? If any of the latter, it might be worth contacting them to see what information they might have about the battlefield from a purely geographic nature. Survey maps, or geographic maps of the area done in a small enough scale that they could pick up the differences in height seen in the early photographs of AVALON? And the older the better.

If such maps exist and copies can be made, my next step would be to identify the exact current location of the museum on the maps and use that as a centre starting point, searching in a spiral outwards.

The early photos with people visiting AVALON and COOKIE show no signs of developed roads. Would people have wanted to walk a great distance through the woods to get there in casual clothing, or were they transported in close enough for a short walk? Perhaps older survey maps might show trails or roads that could have been used to get people close enough to walk in.

Local maps might help rule out a lot of areas quickly. More interesting areas could be covered quickly from the air once the leaves have fallen, either by small aircraft or a drone. Best done in the early morning or evening when shadows are longest and provide the best contrast detain. Those ridges to the left of AVALON would be a key target to look for from the air. Once that has narrowed things down more, go in on foot and see what turns up.

Do you know if Holland ever undertook a national Aerial Photographic Survey anytime from 1945 to the advent of Satellite Imaging? If they did, that archive would be a goldmine of information to look at! Canada did a lot of Oblique Angle Aerial Surveys in the 1920’s but the details of that type of air photo are limited. In 1948, and again in 1964, the Canadian Government did complete aerial surveys of Canada using vertical camera imaging with an overlap rate sufficient to permit excellent stereoscopic imaging. Most of the work was done by the RCAF using modified Lancasters, but a private company called Spartan Aviation was also involved using Mosquitos and Hornets for a while.

Anyway, Alex. Food for thought. One does not always have to look for military things in military sources.

Cheers for now,

David
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  #41  
Old 15-09-20, 18:41
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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David H.

Thanks for the clarification of the hull opening for the beam assembly. Must have made for a very dusty interior!

Would you know if the Crab was intended to operate with a reduced ammunition load for the 75mm compared to the standard Sherman, and not withstanding the field expediencies of individual crews? I am just not sure how much extra weight the Flail System added to a Sherman, nor how much internal space was lost for the modifications, nor what, if anything was given up to make the modification work.


David
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  #42  
Old 15-09-20, 19:41
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering View Post
Well, I would have preferred if you had asked me first, than at the very least I could have added a watermark.
Sorry about that Watermarks are not something I normally bother with, so I didn’t stop to think other people might want to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering View Post
Also at least one of the pics is the same....
You’re right, I failed to spot that it was already in your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dunlop View Post
If the brace on the right side is bent, and relates to the flail drive
Are you referring to the same brace I was? Because if so, that isn’t related to the flail drive but is a normal structural brace in Shermans, and I meant the bend in it in line with a penetration, which looks like it was made by the round coming through the side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dunlop View Post
Be interesting to know if there is enough energy in an anti personnel mine to break a tank track link and cause little other damage.
Some can, but it depends on the type of mine, the type of vehicle and probably exactly where it blows up under the track and wheels. Impossible to tell, I’d say, without knowing all of these variables.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex van de Wetering View Post
I think the brace was either damaged by rounds coming through the sides, or from an internal explosion of ammunition.
You mean a penetrating projectile whose HE charge detonated, right? Because the interior of this Sherman looks too good for one whose 75 mm ammo had detonated. (Also: there was no 75 mm ammo storage in this area of a Crab, because the rounds went through the opening in the brace, meaning the flail drive chain case was in the way.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dunlop View Post
Would you know if the Crab was intended to operate with a reduced ammunition load for the 75mm compared to the standard Sherman
See above: the right front ammo rack had to be removed to make room for the flail drive. Here is the right hull front interior on a restored M4A4:


(source)

The big white box just in front of the brace, with the silver-grey box stuck to its side, is an ammo rack for 75 mm rounds. You can just see the round retention clips through the opening in the brace. This whole rack had to be removed to make room for the flail drive, which goes through a rectangular hole cut in the hull side just in front of that brace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dunlop View Post
I am just not sure how much extra weight the Flail System added to a Sherman
About two tons, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dunlop View Post
nor how much internal space was lost for the modifications, nor what, if anything was given up to make the modification work.
Quite a bit, though of course the interior isn’t exactly spacious to begin with anyway. I built a model of a Crab with a partial interior (which I’d never have been able to do without Alex’s help, BTW), and was surprised at how much room that chain case takes up.
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  #43  
Old 15-09-20, 19:52
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Thanks for the photo, Jakko. Looks like the co-drivers position was also sacrificed with the flail installation, or got even more cramped than it otherwise was already!

David
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  #44  
Old 15-09-20, 22:42
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Quote:
Looks like the co-drivers position was also sacrificed with the flail installation, or got even more cramped than it otherwise was already!
David, I am afraid it was the latter....thankfully he didn't have a .30 cramping the space even more (ball mount was there, but no .30 as it's behind the static part of the flail), but the chain case was right behind the co-drivers seat and above the escape hatch! See the pictures attached.

Also attached is a picture showing the flange in more detail, as mentioned in David Herberts post......and a picture of the 75mm showing damage to the shield.

Last but not least is a picture of the Bovington Crab showing one of the covering plates around the hole in the side armor, and also the spring fixing with the angle iron. I could't find any traces of the covering plates ever fitted to Avalon. pictures source:https://www.recomonkey.com/Land-Plat...rman-Crab-Mk-I

Quote:
Sorry about that Watermarks are not something I normally bother with, so I didn’t stop to think other people might want to.
No worries mate, but next time I have to report you to the MLU police

David; The Overloon museum is in a wooded area, but right next to the village centre; Back in the days when all exhibits were outside, the first exhibits were right behind the fence. Based on memory I think Avalon and Cookie were about 300 meters from the entrance. Next time I'll visit I will see if I can match the surroundings of the early pictures to the museum terrain, but as mentioned earlier the early pictures are said to have been taken in the museum rather than the battlefield.
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Interior1.jpg   Interior2.jpg   Interior3.jpg   Interior4.jpg   hole.jpg  

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  #45  
Old 16-09-20, 10:28
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Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakko Westerbeke View Post
See above: the right front ammo rack had to be removed to make room for the flail drive. Here is the right hull front interior on a restored M4A4:


(source)
That link to photobucket may not show up on all browers. See my web page on Adrian Barrell's M4A4 restoration with interior photos here: http://www.mapleleafup.nl/sherman_sn5271/index.html

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  #46  
Old 16-09-20, 10:41
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dunlop View Post
Looks like the co-drivers position was also sacrificed with the flail installation, or got even more cramped than it otherwise was already!
The chain case fits behind the seat, just (though that could of course partly be due to my modelling skills, or lack thereof ). As Alex says, at least the bow machine gun was deleted, because the whole flail mechanism and blast shield are in the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra View Post
That link to photobucket may not show up on all browers.
I couldn’t find any better, so I decided to link to it despite the huge banner over it. The weird thing is, earlier this year when building that Crab model, I had found that same site with better photos. I suppose they revamped it (it looks different than I remember) and moved the photos or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanno Spoelstra View Post
See my web page on Adrian Barrell's M4A4 restoration with interior photos here: http://www.mapleleafup.nl/sherman_sn5271/index.html
Thanks, much clearer that way
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  #47  
Old 16-09-20, 13:24
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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Regarding the bow machine gun, I was surprised to see that the mount is still present in Avalon - it is visible in one of the photos in post #29 - compare with the photo of Adrian Barrel's gun tank in post #45. I thought that the ball mounts were removed and the hole plated over or plugged but not in this case. There would be good reason for keeping the hull gunner as a crew member as another pair of hands when maintenance or repairs were required (or cooking or making camp).

As David Dunlop mentioned, the gap between the hole in the hull side and the chain case would have allowed vast amounts of dust to be sucked into the tank so I think that the crew would have very quickly plugged it with anything available - I have heard of socks being used to plug bullet holes, making the crew feel much safer as they couldn't see out then. The engine cooling system is designed in such a way that it sucks air from the tank interior through the propeller shaft tunnel and also the oil coolers on the bulkhead, then through the fan and the main radiator, past the engine and out of the back of the tank. This clears gun fumes from inside the tank but if hatches are open there is a huge flow of dusty or cold air into the tank. This can make head out driving quite unpleasant.

David
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  #48  
Old 16-09-20, 17:09
David Dunlop David Dunlop is offline
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Good Afternoon, Alex.

Do you have time for some ‘Wednesday Wisdoms’ from me before the ‘Wednesday Wines’ bell starts ringing here for me?

I noticed in your Post 31 you had listed your National Archive file findings for 1944 War Diaries of two of the 79th Armoured Division Regiments, but you had not listed anything for the 1st L and B Horse.

I am not sure if you are aware of this little wrinkle, or not, but even though the 1st Lothians and Border Horse are a Regiment within the British Army, they are in fact, a Scottish Regiment, headquartered in Edinborough. Consequently, it is very likely, their Regimental War Diaries for the Second World War are held at the Scottish National Archives, also in Edinborough. I would start any search for the War Diaries with that Archive.

The Regiment has a very long history and with the name ‘Lothians’ as part of their heritage, it is also quite possible their War Diary records could be held at County level archives, giving you three more possible alternate archive sites: East Lothian, Midlothian and West Lothian in Scotland. In any event the Scottish National Archive should be able to redirect you to the proper source.

One other small wrinkle. Make certain when searching, you use the name ‘1st Lothians and Border Horse’. Over the history of the Regiment, the name switched back and forth several times between, 1st Lothians and Border Horse, and 1st Lothians and Border Yeomanry. And on occasion both names were in use at the same time for two different Regiments, sometimes prefixed ‘1st’ and ‘1st’ and sometimes ‘1st’ and ‘2nd’.

Thought I would pass that on to you in case you were not aware.

Now to find my cork screw...

David
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  #49  
Old 16-09-20, 19:43
Jakko Westerbeke Jakko Westerbeke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Herbert View Post
I thought that the ball mounts were removed and the hole plated over or plugged but not in this case.
The Crab preserved at Westkapelle, Netherlands (the one I’ve been building a model of) also still had its ball mount. Well, until 2018 anyway, when rust caused the shield to fall off. Looking at photos from the late 1940s, so did at least two other Crabs left behind there after the war, but I don’t have pictures of the other three where the MG mount is visible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Dunlop View Post
I noticed in your Post 31 you had listed your National Archive file findings for 1944 War Diaries of two of the 79th Armoured Division Regiments, but you had not listed anything for the 1st L and B Horse.
I’m not Alex, but courtesy of Michel Sabarly, I have a PDF of the 1944 war diaries of 1 Lothians. The words Overloon, Boxmeer and Broekhuizen do not appear in it, a quick ⌘F tells me.

Browsing on to 1 October 1944, it says:
Quote:
0001hrs. Regt, with C Sqn 22 Dgns under comd, under comd 31 Tk Bde, in sp 3rd (Cdn) Inf Div. Located in area SW of Calais as under:
Tac RHQ - 807699 (Beauregard) Main RHQ & RHQ B Ech - 844583 (Boursin)
A Sqn - 812712 (Bonningues) B Sqn - 819563 (Le Wast)
C Sqn - 760650 (Uzelot) C Sqn 22 Dgns - 847583 (Boursin) Reserve detachment of 264SDS under comd RHQ
B Sec 30 Armd Bde OFP under comd RHQ.
Boursin
Pm. Tac RHQ rejoined Main RHQ. Warned of move to area Cassel/Poperinghe. SW of Calais
Day. RHQ and sqns - recovery and repairs. Rest and refitting.
The regiment spent the next month or so on or near the Belgian coast, which is, at a rough guess, 200+ km away from the Overloon area.
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  #50  
Old 05-10-20, 23:23
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At least two details point to this Crab almost certainly belonging to Westminster Dragoons: firstly, the 79 Armoured Division Formation Sign on the rear is on the right side of the tank, which is a distinctive WD feature; secondly, the name AVALON, if genuine, does not fit the naming patterns of 22 D.
Alex, you mentioned a photo at the Museum showing the name. Did you by any chance copy/photograph it?

Michel
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  #51  
Old 06-10-20, 22:11
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Michel,

I was hoping you would join the discussion! I was just reading your analyses of 22nd Dragoons Crabs in Normandy on ww2talk; very interesting.

Attached is a cutout of the picture I mentioned earlier; I can't show the whole picture, as I don't have the permission to do so. Please let me know what you think....it's hard to read, but I do read "Avalon"....or do I just want to read "Avalon"......?

Thanks for your thoughts on Avalon likely being a Westminster Dragoons tank; I was leaning towards the same thing, but I haven't found the "smoking gun" yet. I have contacted the National Archives for the War Diaries of both Westminster and 22nd Dragoons, but due to the Covid situation things take a bit more time than usual. I was hoping to find the war diaries online, but no luck so far.

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Last edited by Alex van de Wetering; 06-10-20 at 22:21.
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  #52  
Old 06-10-20, 22:20
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Even though I haven't read the actual war diaries yet, I did buy and read some books on the battle of Broekhuizen, where the Westminster Dragoons were active.


"Slag in de Schaduw" by A. Korthals Altes actually writes that one crab got desperately stuck in the mud during the attack on Broekhuizen castle and was moved to the Overloon war museum shortly after the war.

"De Bevrijding van de Gemeente Broekhuizen
" by P.W.L Weijs has a detailed account of the battle of Broekhuizen castle and Broekhuizen village. It mentions that after the battle 2 crabs were left behind, presumably (the?) 1 that got desperately stuck in the mud and one that was put out of action by a Panzerfaust.....the tank commanded by "William Hall", mentioned earlier.

"The story of Westminster Dragoons" sadly doesn't have too much detailed info on the battle in Broekhuizen, but I have to read the rest to see if it includes any info on census numbers and nicknames of tanks.


I have also contacted the local archive of Broekhuizen and the historical society for info....you would think that pictures would exist of the tanks that were left behind....or maybe a written account of one being picked up for a use as a monument in a museum....but sadly they couldn't help out. They did know what I was talking about and knew about the "lost" identity of the Overloon crab.
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Last edited by Alex van de Wetering; 06-10-20 at 22:31.
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  #53  
Old 07-10-20, 09:11
Maurice Donckers Maurice Donckers is offline
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As a sidenote I have Sherman T 211819 , named Spitfire II , And I think it has remnants of the 79th division marking on it . It must have been a command tank , because it has the extra aerial mount on the co drivers side , and an additional one on the turret side . Avalon also has the extra aerial mount on the co drivers side . Does anybody know what set was installed there ?
It would be remarkable if 2 Shermans from the same Battle would be still alive .
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  #54  
Old 07-10-20, 14:27
MicS MicS is offline
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Many thanks to Alex for posting the photos with the name. I agree that the name is AVALON. Eventhough the second and third letters are not absolutely clear, what few parts we can see of them leaves not doubt about their being V and A respectively.

I finally found the time to look up the Westminster Dragoons War Diary, and found the following AFV Casualty State as of 30 November, where T147955 is mentioned. This is all the luckier as AFV Cas States are a very rare occurrence in War Diaries. The Westminster Dragoons itself has them for only a couple of months.

This State reads:
A Sqn, T147955, Crab V, X Casualty, located at STOKT 9021, Transmission unserviceable, with the additional note (also applying to 3 other tank casualties) "recovery probably delayed owing to conditions":
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The War Diary for 30 Nov states that "Cas one CRAB transmission jammed by heavy mine explosion". This Crab belonged to 2 Tp A Sqn:
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A previous mention of a new type of damage by Riegelmine 43 mines had been made in the War Diary for 13 Oct regarding the attack on OVERLOON, where it was noted that "All mines in this area were R Mi 43 and not the usual Teller or Holz mine. They had less effect on tracks and bogies but two rotors of C Sqn CRABS were bent by blast. This had not been previously experienced." This explains AVALON's bent rotor.
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On 1 Nov, an attempt was made to recover the tanks, during which Lt GS COOPER was killed by a Schumine. One may presume that this was one of the reasons why AVALON was abandoned rather than recovered, together with the extent of the damage it had suffered:
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Name:	5 - WD War Diary 1944 12 01-06 - BROCKHUIZEN 9021 - Notes.jpg
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Michel

Last edited by MicS; 07-10-20 at 19:14.
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  #55  
Old 07-10-20, 14:33
MicS MicS is offline
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As a complement to the above, the following extract from "The Westminster Dragoons in North-West Europe June 1944 - May 1945" provides some additional details (my highlights in Bold):

Broekhuizen
Towards the end of November 1944 there were only one or two pockets of German resistance left west of the River Maas. One such pocket was that at the village of BROEKHUIZEN on the west bank of the river and the neighbouring KASTEEL, where a company of tough paratroops from 20 Para Regiment were holding out. Supplies reached them at night by means of a ferry over the river at that point. One attack on the Kasteel by a platoon of 9 Bn Cameron Highlanders had been successfully repulsed, the platoon being wiped out almost to a man. On 29 November orders were received for two troops of A Squadron to proceed from DEURNE where the Squadron was then located, to the BROEKHUIZEN area to support 3 Bn Monmouthshire Regiment of 11 Armoured Division in an attack on this strongpoint the following day. Leaving Capt P.J.S. Squirrell to bring the tanks of the Squadron up the twenty odd miles, Major Wallace went ahead with Lt Hall and Lt Cooper, the troop leaders concerned, to carry out a reconnaissance of the enemy positions and contact the troops with whom the Squadron was to co-operate. They arrived at the village of STOCKT just west of BROEKHUIZEN with only about half an hour of daylight left, and were taken forward by an officer of 3 Mons through the deserted and battered village to an observation post in the last house from which one could see across to the Kasteel about 200 yards away. One at a time they peered cautiously through a hole in the roof and saw a large and solidly built two-storied building with a moat on the near side. Of particular interest were a few small wooden pegs in the ground, which it was suspected marked the minefield. Local Dutch inhabitants had said this protected the enemy position on its south side. There was not a sign of life about the Kasteel. At intervals single shells burst in the air above it in a small black cloud, and in the failing light the place had a vaguely sinister air. The officers hurried back to the scout cars at the other end of the village as they were due almost immediately at an "O" Group at the battalion headquarters of 3 Mons a mile or so away. On arrival they met officers from the artillery and 15/19 Hussars, who were also supporting the infantry. The Colonel of the Battalion outlined the plan for the next day's attack and final details were tied up between the supporting arms and infantry. At the conclusion of orders the three officers went back up the road to a rendez-vous previously arranged with Capt Squirell and were pleased to find that he and the tanks had already arrived and were harboured along the edge of a wood. The Squadron Leader gave his orders for the following day and after a hot meal all except the guards turned in for the night, hoping that no German patrols from across the river would arrive suddenly to disturb their night's rest. The German artillery from across the Maas shelled the area spasmodically throughout the night and the sound of each shell-burst was magnified many times as it echoed and re-echoed through the silent woods. One had little idea whether they were a mile or two away or only a few hundred yards.
Next morning the flails moved off through the woods towards the start line ahead of a squadron of 15/19 Hussars who had been harbouring nearby. The route lay along a typical Dutch mud track which threatened to disintegrate at any moment beneath the weight of the tanks. Within a short time its banks had collapsed in two places, two of the flails became bogged blocking the route, and it looked as if they might prevent all the tanks behind them from reaching the start line on time. One was towed out without much loss of time and it was found just possible to get tanks past the other. At 1000 hrs the first three flails of 2 Tp advanced ahead of the infantry towards the Kasteel, the first objective, supported by mortar and artillery concentrations. The two tanks of Squadron headquarters took up positions in a gap between two small woods, from which they could engage both the Kasteel and BROEKHUIZEN, which was the objective of the second phase of the attack. After going about a hundred yards the flails started exploding mines, one was put out of action and Serjeant Bee commanding another wounded when his tank was hit by an enemy shell. The crew of the damaged tank were ordered to ''bail out" after putting down local smoke and got back safely. Another flail was sent forward to take their place and all three lanes were successfully completed to within a few yards of the Kasteel although the infantry following behind them suffered heavy casualties from the enemy artillery, which was putting down heavy and accurate fire using the Church tower at ARCEN on the other side of the Maas as an observation post. Having done their job the flails of 2 Tp returned, and were ordered to make a lane up to the Kasteel from the west. Here they ran into bad ground and both got bogged. At eleven o'clock three flails of 4 Tp under Lt Hall advanced towards BROEKHUIZEN for the second phase of the attack, and the fire of the Squadron HQ tanks, which up till now had been firing at the Kasteel and putting down smoke for 2 Tp, was switched onto this new target. One could see little spurts of flame from German machine guns among the buildings and round after round of HE was fired at the houses. The flails did their job magnificently and made lanes up to the village for the infantry, who were being held up by the enemy's machine gun fire. After completing his lane, Lt Hall's tank was hit by a bazooka and brewed up, luckily not before the crew were able to "bail out". Lt Hall and his operator, Tpr McCartney, were wounded and evacuated at once to a nearby medical post. By this time the infantry had got into BROEKHUIZEN and dealt with the enemy there. But outside the Kasteel, the defenders were putting up a desperate defence, inflicting casualties on our men every time they showed themselves outside the ditches in which they were taking cover. Orders were received to clear the route to the Kasteel from STOKT, and, sending the remainder of the flails to rally a few hundred yards to the rear, the Squadron Leader took two round to the village. One commanded by Serjeant Bailey swept the road to within a few yards of the entrance to the Kasteel and then became bogged. Major Wallace met the Colonel of 3 Mons, in STOKT and gave him what information he had. A few minutes later the Colonel of 3 Mons was killed while very gallantly trying to lead his men in person into the Kasteel. It seemed impossible for the infantry to take the place by frontal assault, and so tanks of the 15/19 Hussars came up the lanes that had been-made and bombarded it at point blank range until eventually the enemy surrendered. Operations of comparatively small scale such as this can very often be more costly to the units concerned than much larger battles. 3 Mons lost 10 officers and 100 Other Ranks in clearing up this enemy pocket and at the end of the day had a Serjeant in command of one of their Companies. During this operation A Squadron had one officer, Lt G. S. Cooper, killed and one officer and two Other Ranks wounded. A Special Order of the Day was issued by the Commanding Officer at the conclusion of this operation.

The Special Order of the Day is in the December War Diary:
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Name:	6 - WD War Diary - Special Order of the Day 4 Dec 44 - A Sqn BROCKHUISEN.JPG
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Michel
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  #56  
Old 07-10-20, 14:58
MicS MicS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice Donckers View Post
As a sidenote I have Sherman T 211819 , named Spitfire II , And I think it has remnants of the 79th division marking on it . It must have been a command tank , because it has the extra aerial mount on the co drivers side , and an additional one on the turret side . Avalon also has the extra aerial mount on the co drivers side . Does anybody know what set was installed there ?
It would be remarkable if 2 Shermans from the same Battle would be still alive .

It's actually SPITFIRE IV, belonging to HQ C Sqn 22 Dragoons. See (from 02:00):
https://www.britishpathe.com/video/montys-new-offensive


Michel
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  #57  
Old 07-10-20, 17:38
Hanno Spoelstra's Avatar
Hanno Spoelstra Hanno Spoelstra is offline
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Default Sherman T-211819 "Spitfire IV”

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicS View Post
It's actually SPITFIRE IV, belonging to HQ C Sqn 22 Dragoons. See (from 02:00):
https://www.britishpathe.com/video/montys-new-offensive
Nice find! See https://www.britishpathe.com/video/s...-new-offensive for all the stills from this film.

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Last edited by Hanno Spoelstra; 08-10-20 at 16:24. Reason: edited to attach more photos
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  #58  
Old 07-10-20, 20:48
Alex van de Wetering Alex van de Wetering is offline
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Michel,

Terrific to see you have the war diaries!......and hereby you have solved the "identity crisis" of Avalon! We can now confirm that, at the time it was put out of action, Avalon was part of the Westminster Dragoons....and it also confirms that Broekhuizen was the final resting place. I will contact the Overloon museum and send them the link to this thread, so they can see the confirmation. Hopefully we can convince them to correct the AoS at the next repaint....and correct the sign next to it.

So, based on the war diary, Avalon was part of 2 troop , A squadron Westminster Dragoons, which means that it was not William Hall's tank at the time, as he was the commander of 4 troop.

Quote:
As a sidenote I have Sherman T 211819 , named Spitfire II , And I think it has remnants of the 79th division marking on it . It must have been a command tank , because it has the extra aerial mount on the co drivers side , and an additional one on the turret side . Avalon also has the extra aerial mount on the co drivers side .
Avalon does indeed have the aerial base still on the right hand front of the hull, but I haven't noticed any remains of any other aerial mounts on the turret.... I mean, I have also seen pictures of Shermans with an extra mount welded on the right hand side of the turret, close to the commander, but I don't see any remains of this on Avalon.

Quote:
It's actually SPITFIRE IV, belonging to HQ C Sqn 22 Dragoons. See (from 02:00):
What an excellent find.........wartime moving footage of Maurice's Sherman!
I also saw it mentioned in Kevins Excel list.

Alex
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Last edited by Alex van de Wetering; 08-10-20 at 00:14.
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  #59  
Old 07-10-20, 22:29
David Herbert David Herbert is offline
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The extra aerial mount on the right hand side of the turret above the lifting eye is a common British (and presumably Canadian) addition.

An aerial mount in the hull by the co-driver's position would suggest an additional hull mounted radio, presumably for communication with the infantry (a No. 38 set ?).

I am very happy for Maurice that he has wartime film footage of his tank and a full identity, what a great find !

David
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Old 07-10-20, 23:29
kevinT kevinT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MicS View Post
Many thanks to Alex for posting the photos with the name. I agree that the name is AVALON. Eventhough the second and third letters are not absolutely clear, what few parts we can see of them leaves not doubt about their being V and A respectively.

I finally found the time to look up the Westminster Dragoons War Diary, and found the following AFV Casualty State as of 30 November, where T147955 is mentioned. This is all the luckier as AFV Cas States are a very rare occurrence in War Diaries. The Westminster Dragoons itself has them for only a couple of months.

This State reads:
A Sqn, T147955, Crab V, X Casualty, located at STOKT 9021, Transmission unserviceable, with the additional note (also applying to 3 other tank casualties) "recovery probably delayed owing to conditions":
Attachment 116598

The War Diary for 30 Nov states that "Cas one CRAB transmission jammed by heavy mine explosion". This Crab belonged to 2 Tp A Sqn:
Attachment 116599 Attachment 116600

A previous mention of a new type of damage by Riegelmine 43 mines had been made in the War Diary for 13 Oct regarding the attack on OVERLOON, where it was noted that "All mines in this area were R Mi 43 and not the usual Teller or Holz mine. They had less effect on tracks and bogies but two rotors of C Sqn CRABS were bent by blast. This had not been previously experienced." This explains AVALON's bent rotor.
Attachment 116601

On 1 Nov, an attempt was made to recover the tanks, during which Lt GS COOPER was killed by a Schumine. One may presume that this was one of the reasons why AVALON was abandoned rather than recovered, together with the extent of the damage it had suffered:
Attachment 116602


Michel
Hi Michel,

Thanks for these I have added to and cross checked against my census number database and found a couple of things.

I had T212594 as belonging to 22 Dragoons turret No. 47 via Vanguard To Victory by David Fletcher (details must have been forwarded to me as i do not have this book).

T147892 appears in a 27th Armd Brg workshops return ( sent to me by Tom O'Brien on WW2Talk)

Cheers

Kevin
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