MKI rifle and MG stowage

alleramilitaria · #1 24-08-05, 08:42

could someone send me a drawing for where all the clips go on a early MK I carrier. i have a carrier with a milk carton full of rifle hold down clips. i need it for the rear and the gunners area. thanks
dave

Nigel Watson · #2 29-08-05, 01:22

Gunners Position has a clip to the left of the firing slot which holds the Bren in a vertical position when travelling.
Rear behind Gunners position there is a bracket with two rifle holder clips on it. The rifles are held butt down. In the other rear compartment behind the driver, fixed on the piece of engine cover to the side of the radiator fan cowling, is a single clip for carrying the Bren in a vertical position when travelling with it in the rear.

There are also clips and brackets for carrying the Boys AT Rifle.

Hope this helps
Nigel

alleramilitaria · #3 29-08-05, 02:16

hey thanks, yes it helps.
dave

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #4 29-08-05, 18:13

Nigel, thanks for that great shot. It illustrates a small detail that every carrier owner may benefit from. The top of the signal cartridge box on the forward, right hand engine cover is painted in thirds red/white/green to indicate the colour of the cartridges within. I shall be painting mine this very evening!!

rob love · #5 30-08-05, 04:31

I like the photo of the back radio operator's seat cushion. And you can see the second one (kneeling rest) located on the floor just ahead of it.
But look, it's missing the Bren loading tool box.
Too bad it didn't have the smoke disharger installed; I'd like to see where how they loop the bowden cable over the top of the armour.

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #6 30-08-05, 13:46

The Bren loading tool box is not there, but the 4 mounting holes are (later Canadian Mk.1 carriers didn't even have these). I like the length of the rubber strap to secure the Bren, Boys or whatever to the left of the commander. ..longer than I'd figured from my broken stump.

This is a very early carrier, given the horn, Lucas headlamps and crowbar on the front plate. Is there a way to determine if it is British or Canadian?

Jordan Baker · #7 30-08-05, 15:18

Hi Dave

Here is photo of a friend's Mk1 carrier. On the left of the photo is the support for the Bren or Boyes. Both firearms just sit rest on the front support in the slot. The strap then passes over them and secures. Just to the right of the slot is a bracket for attaching the bren in a verticaly stowed position. This would allow the butt to sit in a bracket on the floor of the carrier. There should be rubber strips on the inside of the cliping part.

I hope this helps you out in indentifying everything youve got.

Jordan

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #8 01-10-05, 14:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Parker
Nigel, thanks for that great shot. It illustrates a small detail that every carrier owner may benefit from. The top of the signal cartridge box on the forward, right hand engine cover is painted in thirds red/white/green to indicate the colour of the cartridges within. I shall be painting mine this very evening!!

Well, it took longer than an evening, but here is my now correctly marked signal cartridge box on the forward right engine cover. Thanks Nigel!!

Jon Skagfeld · #9 02-10-05, 03:06

Hey, Bruce:

Nice green garden hose.

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #10 02-10-05, 16:11

I should have known the khaki cammouflage paint would make the engine cover almost invisible to old guys like you. Now put on your bi, tri or quad focals and have antother look to the LEFT of the hose...

Barry Churcher · #11 02-10-05, 19:17

Bruce, my bi-focals are old and my new ones should be in this week, but that looks just like the Italian flag to me. Are you trying to start another flag controversy?

Cheers,
Barry

c. ladouceur (RIP) · #12 02-10-05, 20:16

Bruce,
I thought I had asked you about this paint job when you were here?That's the way one of my cartridge boxes is painted. When I first got it,I thought it was some sort of civilian handy work,but someone told me that was the correct marking-(thought it was you?).
Cliff.

Lynn Eades · #13 02-10-05, 21:59

Those boxes had yellow on the middle part of the lid, to match the colours of the flares inside.

Tony Smith · #14 02-10-05, 23:41

Yellow? Aussie carriers also had Red, White and Green paint on the flare cartidge storage case to match the flare cartridges inside. Hadn't heard of Yellow flares before.

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #15 03-10-05, 00:11

Lynn, here is my Fox signal cartridge container. The colours were duplicated from one in an Otter. Could the yellow really be white that has gone a little yellow with age?

Tony Smith · #16 03-10-05, 00:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Parker
Could the yellow really be white that has gone a little yellow with age?

Or a cheap Chinese copy?

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #17 03-10-05, 02:05

...you're BAD!!!!

(yellow is a perfectly acceptable colour that should be given all the respect and dignity of every other colour)

Lynn Eades · #18 03-10-05, 12:49

tightened up Tony's spring. Maybe......they are wh...... Yellow does ad a bit of zest to things,....Don't you think? Okay.....so it's white is it? ......But if it changes with age......when does Tony become a ...........(can't say that)....Yes Jon , I agree whole heartedly, It is a nice green garden hose!......(whats an Octant anyway?)

Tony Smith · #19 04-10-05, 00:28

I'm so tightly wound I couldn't sleep, so thought I'd look deeply into some reference books to nod off. With humblest apologies to Lynn, it seems that in the 60's the white flare cartridges were replaced by yellow ones (for land service!), so depending on the period of the vehicle the centre section could be white (Carriers, Fox, Otter) OR yellow (Ferret?, Centurion?).

Nigel Watson · #20 04-10-05, 00:51

I'm glad you all like the photo. The middle colour is as Bruce has painted white and the carrier is English! Also the aerial base is for the D section aerial. The bin at the rear of the long Kit Locker was for storing 4 smoke generators used in the 4" smoke discharger. Not fitted on this carrier although the bracket is there.

What I really enjoyed seeing were the milling marks on the flare cartridges so that you could tell which one was to be used. Pretty important I would say. Went out to the garage to look at mine and yes they were the same!! So thanks for that Tony.

Lynn Eades · #21 04-10-05, 12:06

Can you post a pic. of a flare cart. box out of an Aust carrier? The ones I have,have a bolt tag welded to the base of the box at one end. They came to me with some other LP2/2a boxes. When did the LP2a's retire from service in Australia (and New Zealand)

Lynn Eades · #22 04-10-05, 12:16

This might seem a silly quesion, but others may benefit as well. Why do you call it a "D section aerial" ? Whats its proper designation? and where do I get one? (I already have the mount)

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #23 04-10-05, 14:02

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nigel
[B] Also the aerial base is for the D section aerial. The bin at the rear of the long Kit Locker was for storing 4 smoke generators used in the 4" smoke discharger. Not fitted on this carrier although the bracket is there.

Nigel (or others who may or may not be wound), do you have details of the interior of the bin for the smoke generators? I need to find or make one of these. I have the exterior details but not the interior. I recall that there was an insert with large diameter holes to accept the smoke pots.

Lynn, Brits named all their aerial sections by a letter. 19 A set 4' sections (2 lowers, a middle and a top which could be configured at 4', 8', 12' or 16') were called "F" sections, the 18" B set aerial was a "G" section.

11 sets were the original wireless sets intended for Mk.1 carriers, but by 1942 were replaced with 19 sets. This required a new mount and a converssion kit. 11 set aerials were 4' long 7/8" diameter steel or aluminium sections that sleeved together ("C" Sections and "D sections"). I have the base too, and the 11 set but no aerial sections.

rob love · #24 04-10-05, 15:03

Another common question also related to the 11 set, is what the little tray on the left armoured radiator cover was for. I'm talking about the tray which has the two small arms brackets built onto the end of it. There is a box which holds the couplings for the 11 set, which fits into this tray. I have never seen one; does anyone have more info on this box?

Also, while I have seen the smoke discharger stowage box, I have not seen the brackets (if any) which go into it, nor have I ever seen what the discharger pucks look like. Does anyone have more info on these?

Nigel Watson · #25 04-10-05, 19:49

Quote:

Originally posted by rob love
Another common question also related to the 11 set, is what the little tray on the left armoured radiator cover was for. I'm talking about the tray which has the two small arms brackets built onto the end of it. There is a box which holds the couplings for the 11 set, which fits into this tray. I have never seen one; does anyone have more info on this box?

Do you have documentation which shows this box and its stowage Rob? I have often wondered why they built this tray with the hole in it and the rifle holders on its edge. Someone told me that a box which held the rifle mags and clips was stowed there which seemed logical as the proximity to the weapons seemed appropriate. With the 11 set mounted in the opposite side and all other radio equipment being stowed beside the radio leads me to ask my question!

Also, while I have seen the smoke discharger stowage box, I have not seen the brackets (if any) which go into it, nor have I ever seen what the discharger pucks look like. Does anyone have more info on these?

I have a small drawing which shows the outline of these smoke cannisters in dotted line. There are four cannisters stowed in the bin but I too have never seen the inside packers. The smoke cannisters I believe are not too different from the ground operated ones, these have a tape which you light for a quick smoke!!!! The fired ones must have some form of ignition which the .303 cartridge contacts with to make it fly! Accurate to 100 yards the official newsreel says.

Nigel

Nigel Watson · #26 04-10-05, 19:50

Sorry added a wee bit in amongst Robs reply!!

Bruce Parker (RIP) · #27 05-10-05, 00:37

This is cutting on the last remaining mysteries of Mk.1 carriers.

1. here is a description of the smoke rounds from the Coventry armoured car manual.

2. the 'insert' I'm looking for is not an addition, but a sheet metal interior part with holes cut in it that is part of the smoke generator box. I have dimensions and construction details for the exterior of the box.

3. the bracket on the left rad armour: it is listed as a 'wireless bracket' in the parts book. As the only wireless set that book contemplates is the 11 set, I suspect this bracket (beyond being an extension for the rifle clips) is for the 11 set "Aerial Coupling Equipment Aerial Unit 'C'". This is a wrinkle finished box 5-1/8" by 5-1/2" by 6-1/2" tall that acts much like a variometer for a 19 set. The proof may be in the pairs of small holes in the side of this bracket (at least on mine) that might suggest a pair of L-shaped brackets that make fitting of the C Coupler perfect. Why the coupling unit would be stored here is a mystery as it would, in that location, be of no use in the operation of the set. I'll steal the digital camera from work and send some pictures.

4. I feel truly sorry for those unfortunates that don't have a carrier and cannot, as a result, follow this.

Tony Smith · #28 05-10-05, 08:57

Bruce, that diagram is captioned wrong. The diagram is of the "Generator, Smoke", not the "Cartridge, Small Arms, Rifle Grenade". The cartridge for launching Rifle Grenades is a .303 case not unlike a blank, however the blank is filled with Cordite and crimped, while the Rifle Grenade Cartridge is filled with Nitrocelluose and plugged with cardboard and shellac. Nitrocelluose burns hotter and with more pressure than Cordite, the heat put to better use in ignitng the smoke compound.

rob love · #29 05-10-05, 14:48

The term" Aerial Coupling" is indicated for that tray in a stowage diagram for the carrier which is in an old book about equipment of the British Army. I never knew what it refferred to; I thought it was a box with a bunch of unions for the antenna sections. Thanks for solving that for me Bruce.

rob love · #30 05-10-05, 22:10

I just noticed on the overhead photo of the carrier something that is foreign to me. What is the item located between the right headlamp and the horn? I don't recall there being anything mounted in that location; is it a siren perhaps? Maybe they were trying to appeal to the Americans, who seem to like that sort of thing.