Dutch Army in Afghanistan

[John McGillivray]

Hanno, do you have any information regarding the deployment of the Dutch troops to Afghanistan? My understanding is that Holland was to send about 2000 troops and some heavy lift helicopters to be part of the NATO Brigade there, along with the Canadians, British and Australians. How are the Dutch people reacting to this?

[John McGillivray]

I found this info on the web.

http://www.radionetherlands.nl/curre...rs/ned060315mc

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...nt_4310119.htm

http://www.netherlands-embassy.org/a...f=AR00001836EN

[wim sikkelbein]

I'm not Hanno but,

there is a lot of talk about sending our troops to Urugzan, The most commotion was right after the announcement that we were about to send troops to Afghanistan, most of the Dutch people were against sending our troops on the grounds that it was to "dangerous" to go there. The government said that the dangers where acceptable and after a wail the people kind of forgot about it and the mission is going forward as planned with the quartermaster flying in last week

[John McGillivray]

Canada loans Dutch comrades armoured vehicles
Updated Thu. Sep. 14 2006 11:29 PM ET
Canadian Press
OTTAWA -- Canada has loaned its Dutch comrades five heavily-armoured Nyala patrol vehicles for use in southern Afghanistan.
And in an exchange steeped in irony, our European ally has offered up flight time on helicopters -- some of which more than likely belonged to Canada and were sold to the Netherlands by the Mulroney government in 1991.
A defence spokesman said the loan of the armoured vehicles will not affect the army's ability to carry out operations - nor will it imperil Canadian troops who routinely face roadside bomb attacks.
"It's a temporary loan until the Dutch are ready to receive their own vehicles," said Maj. Luc Gaudet, a spokesman for the Canadian Expeditionary Force.
Two of the five are brand-new vehicles, while the others are models previously used by Canadian engineers to clear roadways of booby traps.
In June, the Dutch cabinet approved the $31.7 million purchase of 25 Australian Bushmaster armoured patrol vehicles in order to provide more protection for troops operating in Uruzgun province, north of Kandahar.
The proliferation of deadly road-side bomb attacks has sent many of Canada's NATO allies in Afghanistan scrambling to replace -- or upgrade -- lightly armoured jeeps.
Gaudet said it's not clear when the vehicles will be returned, but he expects it to be sometime this fall.
While there is no specific exchange outlined in the memorandum between the two countries, the Dutch Defence ministry noted Canadian troops need help getting around the far-flung desert battlefield and have put forward routine access to CH-47 Chinook helicopters.
Gaudet was asked whether it was a formal exchange.
"Yes and no," he replied.
Given that Canada sold its 12 Chinooks to the Netherlands as a cost-cutting measure, the collegial offer wasn't something the Canadian army was eager to trumpet.
"All countries contribute to the overall success of the mission in southern Afghanistan," said Gaudet.
"Everybody shares. As part of the overall effort some resources from the Dutch, as well as resources of other allies, have been put at the disposition of the commanders in the field."
The Americans and British also maintain fleets of Chinook helicopters in Kandahar, which Canadian troops have used on occasion.
Military officials both in Afghanistan and at home refuse to say whether the Dutch aircraft used by the Canadians the spring are the refurbished ones sold to the Netherlands.
The absence of heavy-lift battlefield helicopters has long been a bone of contention for the chief of defence staff, Gen. Rick Hillier.
Early this summer, the new Conservative government said it intended to buy 16 brand new medium-to-heavy lift helicopters, which will more than likely be Boeing Corp.'s CH-47 Chinook helicopters at a cost of $2.7 billion.
The delivery date remains unclear, but a defence analyst said the federal government should negotiate something more substantial for troop transport than the informal arrangement with the Dutch.
"The objective is to get the capability as quickly as possible," said Don Macnamara, a retired air force brigadier-general and member of the Canadian Institute for Strategic Studies.
Failing a quick purchase, he said Canada could get into some kind of lease arrangement, likely from the United States "if they're the same kind of helicopter we're going to be flying the future."
The military has stepped up purchases of long-neglected equipment since 2,200 Canadian troops deployed to southern Afghanistan last winter.
Last November, the Liberal government rushed through the purchase of 50 new patrol vehicles and followed up in February with an order for an additional 25.
Both the Nyala and Bushmaster have heavily reinforced V-shaped hulls, which are better able to withstand mine blasts than most other armoured vehicles.
The Dutch have agreed to replace any of the $1.3-million vehicles that are destroyed in combat.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...a_dutch_060914

[Pedr]

What a fantastic choice the Dutch have made too.

The ADI ( Australian Defence Industries ) Bushmaster is a nice vehicle.

Mike Cecil ( Australian War Memorial ), brought one from the Memorial's collection to Corowa in 2004. Had a ride in it.... very impressive, although a little smelly as the NBC airsystem means that it only recycles and air-conditions the same internal air, so if your soldiers are a little on the nose - like the ones who'd obviously used this one before us; everyone on board gets a good nose full.

Top Pic : Parked up in Rutherglen, during our grand-parade.

Bottom Pic : The "cholesterol brothers" - Son "Robbie" and friend "Lochie", of infamous Aussie MV "collector" ( used loosely ) Hugh Davis; inspect the inside of the Bushmaster.

[Pedr]

Some info on the ADI Bushmaster

SPECIFICATIONS
Crew: 2+7
Armament: 1 x 7.62mm MG ( typical )
Ammunition: 1000 rounds ( typical )
Length: 7.02m ( 23' )
Width: 2.50m ( 8' 2½" )
Height: 2.65m ( 8' 8½" )
Ground Clearance: 0.47m ( 1' 6½" )
Weight, combat: 14,000kgs ( 31,500 pounds )
Weight, empty: 11,300kgs ( 25,425 pounds )
Power-to-weight-ratio:21.42hp/tonne
Engine: Caterpillar 3126 ATAAC 6-cylinder diesel developing 300ho @ 2400rpm
Maximum road speed: 120km/h ( 72 MPH )
Maximum road range: 1000kms ( 600 Miles )
Fuel Capacity: 385 litres
Fording: 1.20m ( 4' )
Vertical Obstacle: 0.44m ( 1' 5½" )
Gradient: 60%
Side Slope: 40%
Armour Type: Steel

KEY RECOGNITION FEATURES

>Box shaped hull with vertical front with horizontal louvres, bonnet slopes gently up to large one piece windscreen which slopes well to rear, horizontal roof extends to vertical hull rear.

>Hull sides are vertical with distinct step above road wheels. Large side window towards front and three smaller ones to rear. Mounted on either side of hull at rear is a replacement wheel and tyre.

>Single circular roof hatch over forward part of roof on which a 7.62mm MG or similar weapon can be mounted, four rectangular roof hatches over rear troop compartment.

[Pedr]

The hull of the Bushmaster is of all welded steel armour which provides the occupants with protection from small arms fire, shell splinters and mines. The powerpack consists of a diesel engine coupled to a fully automatic transmission, is mounted at the front of the vehicle with the driver and commander behind.

[Pedr]

The infantry are seated on individual seats that run down each side of the hull rear facing inwards. Entry is via a large door in the hull rear. The troop compartment is provided with seven large bullet proof windows three each side and one in the rear door. each of these windows has a firing port.

[Pedr]

Standard equipment includes power steering, air conditioning system, cooled water supply system and hydraulically operated 10 tonne winch. A 7.62mm or 5.56mm machine gun can be mounted above the commander's and drivers position.

VARIANTS

Variants include:-

Ambulance
Command Post
Mortar Carrier
Direct Fire Weapons
Repair ( Fitters )
Engineer ( Assault Pioneer )

Manufactured by ADI Limited, Bendigo, Victoria, Australia.

[Pedr]

Testing against IED's ( Improvised Explosive Devices )

[Pedr]

.....And the outcome.

Here the vehicle has one wheel station blown off. As you can clearly see there is no breach of the crew compartment.

Also visible is the "V" shape of the hull.

[Pedr]

In the snow of the Australian Alps. ( Yes, we have snow here too! )

[Pedr]

...And finally, in service with the Australia Army in East Timor.

[John McGillivray]

Here is a link to photos of the Dutch Army in the field in Afghanistan.

http://www.mindef.nl/service/fotogal...9&nMediaPage=0

[John McGillivray]

It looks like the Dutch may have had their first major combat in Uruzgan province Afghanistan. CNN is reporting that up to 150 insurgents attacked an ISAF operating base in the Chora Valley. One NATO soldier is reported killed with nine troops and civilians wounded. Up to 70 insurgents were killed.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/am...ing/index.html

From CTV News.

NATO: 70 suspected insurgents killed in south
Updated Sun. Oct. 29 2006 7:26 AM ET
Associated Press
KABUL, Afghanistan -- NATO and Afghan troops killed 70 suspected militants who attacked a military base in southern Afghanistan, while a roadside blast killed one NATO soldier and wounded eight others, the alliance said Sunday.
Some 100 to 150 militants attacked a military base north of Tarin Kowt in Uruzgan on Saturday, said Maj. Luke Knittig, a spokesman for the NATO-led force. The alliance and Afghan troops fought back for several hours with small arms fire, attack helicopters and airstrikes.
Seventy insurgents were killed, Knittig said, upgrading an earlier estimate of 55 dead. One Afghan soldier was wounded. It was impossible to independently verify the death toll at the remote battle site.
On Sunday, a roadside blast killed one NATO soldier and wounded eight in Uruzgan, the alliance said. Three civilians were wounded. The nationalities of the slain and wounded soldiers were not disclosed.
Saturday's fighting in Uruzgan province came a day after an international human rights group criticized NATO-led troops in Afghanistan, saying their tactics increasingly endanger civilians and are turning the population against the Western alliance.
NATO's top commander apologized Saturday for civilian deaths caused by fighting between Taliban militants and NATO forces earlier in the week, but said insurgents endanger civilians by hiding among them.
"Sadly, in asymmetric warfare, when you're battling an insurgency, typically the insurgents do not play by the same rules that we would like to play by," U.S. Gen. James L. Jones said.
The New York-based Human Rights Watch complained Friday that NATO's recent operations have killed dozens of civilians, but it also criticized the Taliban and other insurgents for putting civilians at risk "by using populated areas to launch attacks on NATO and Afghan government forces."
Jones, the NATO commander, expressed regret for civilian deaths but said Taliban fighters use civilians as human shields and said that in the heat of battle it can be difficult to separate the two.
The death of a civilian "is something that causes anybody in uniform to lose a lot of sleep," Jones said at a news conference at Bagram, the largest U.S. base in Afghanistan.
His comments came four days after clashes between NATO-led troops and insurgents in the south that Afghan officials say killed 30 to 80 civilians, including women and children. NATO said its initial investigation found 12 civilians killed.
The 32,000-strong NATO-led force took command of security operations in Afghanistan last month. The alliance has been battling resurgent Taliban militants in the south and east in the worst upsurge of violence since the 2001 U.S.-led invasion ousted the Taliban.
A purported statement by the Taliban leadership, meanwhile, said the hardline militia has ruled out talks with President Hamid Karzai's government as long as foreign troops remain in the country.
The statement, e-mailed to The Associated Press by purported militia spokesman Muhammad Hanif, dismissed Karzai's offer for talks Friday and called his administration a "puppet government." Hanif's exact ties to Taliban leaders are unclear, and it was not possible to verify the statement's authenticity.
On Friday, Karzai reiterated to reporters that he was ready to negotiate with Mullah Omar if the fugitive stops receiving support from neighboring Pakistan. Karzai says Omar is hiding in the Pakistani city of Quetta, while Pakistan says he is in Afghanistan.
Over the past two years, hundreds of Taliban supporters, including some senior officials, have reconciled with Karzai's government, but there is no indication that high-level talks with the rebel leadership have occurred.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...hub=TopStories

[Hanno Spoelstra]

On 3rd of October the Netherlands Army released a movie shot by an army photographer. It shows footage of a Dutch-led Afghan unit attacking the northern flank of the Taliban in their position at the Kora Kora police post, near Chora, Uruzgan. At the same time a Dutch unit was attacking the same position from the south.

link to short version (7 min)

link to long version (15 min)

This is rare footage because since the invention of the film camera the Netherlands Army either wasn't fighting (WW1), was fighting very short (WW2), or media coverage was severely curtailed.

The Netherlands Army released this footage to show the peace really has to be enforced, so to speak. Many civilians and politicians do not realise we are really fighting a war far from home.

Hanno

P.S. the Dutch troops are equipped with Canadian-built Diemaco C7-series guns.

[John McGillivray]

Published: Saturday, November 3, 2007 | 11:37 AM ET
Canadian Press: THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - A Dutch soldier was killed by a roadside bomb Saturday in Afghanistan, the Defence Ministry said.
Cpl. Ronald Groen, 21, was one of three men on patrol in an armoured car when it drove over an improvised explosive device, Gen. Dick Berlijn told reporters in The Hague.
The two others were injured but in stable condition, Berlijn said.
The patrol was part of the "Spin Ghar" operation - a major offensive against the Taliban in the southern Afghan province of Uruzgan, where the Netherlands currently has around 1,650 troops stationed.
Despite the Dutch troop presence, Taliban forces have gained in strength in Uruzgan in recent months, hindering attempts to help locals rebuild their lives after years of violence and Taliban rule.
Spin Ghar, a joint operation by Afghan, Canadian, U.S., British, Dutch and Australian forces, aims to reduce the Taliban's presence in targeted areas before winter.
"The operation is difficult and puts a heavy burden on our soldiers, but it's been successful," Berlijn said, after offering his condolences to Groen's family.
"The local population has reacted positively, the Taliban is leaving the area and many weapons depots have been uncovered, with munitions, rifles, rockets and much materiel for improvised explosives."
Groen is the 12th Dutch fatality in Afghanistan. The Netherlands is expected to decide this month whether to extend its participation in the NATO force in Afghanistan past the mission's current end date in August 2008.

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/071103/w110326A.html

[John McGillivray]

Dutch weighing Afghan 'responsibilities': minister
Updated Sun. Nov. 4 2007 1:21 PM ET
CTV.ca News Staff
The Dutch government knows that if it decides to pull out of Afghanistan, it will make it more difficult for Canada to stay, says The Netherlands' defence minister.
"But we do realize in this country ... that we started a serious job that will take many, many years to help that country," Eimert van Middelkoop told CTV's Question Period on Sunday.
Speaking from The Hague, the minister said that his country's Parliament will be debating the extension issue in December.
The Netherland's international responsibilities, along with its national interests, will be part of that debate, he said.
"For the whole of NATO ... it would be very difficult if one of the countries -- the Netherlands or Canada or the Netherlands -- will say 'no,'" van Middelkoop said.
"If one of the countries will go home, all the problems of the other countries will increase. That is the international responsibility."
Van Middelkoop has been very critical of some NATO member countries over their reluctance to put troops and equipment in harm's way.
"There is no such thing as a free ride to peace and security. Fair risk and burden-sharing remain the leading principles of this alliance," he said during a meeting of NATO defence ministers in the Netherlands in late October.
In response, some countries promised small increases in the number of troops and military trainers.
The Dutch commitment currently expires in August 2008. The country's troops are operating in Uruzgan province, which lies immediately north of Kandahar province -- Canada's area of responsibility.
Twelve Dutch troops have died in Afghanistan, the latest in a roadside bombing on Saturday. About 1,700 Dutch troops are serving in Afghanistan.
Canada has lost 71 troops and one diplomat in Afghanistan since 2002. About 2,500 Canadian troops are serving ther.
Extending the mission has been a major political controversy in this country, with the minority Conservative government wanting to extend the current mission to 2011.
The three opposition parties oppose an extension of the current mission, which has seen Canadian troops in heavy combat. The NDP would like to see the troops brought home now.
Prime Minister Stephen Harper has advocated that if Canada stays until 2011, Afghanistan's national army could be largely self-sufficient.
Gen. Rick Hillier, Canada's chief of defence staff, caused a furor when he said it could take a decade to develop Afghanistan's national army -- but he later said he's on the same page as the prime minister.
Van Middelkoop sided with Harper.
If the Netherlands extends its commitment to 2010, "the Afghan National Army will be a very effective and realistic actor in the field, and then we can start an exit strategy," he said.
However, van Middelkoop didn't make it clear whether he was speaking about the Dutch operations in Uruzgan or NATO operations as a whole.
On the notion of success, "the term 'winning' is maybe a little bit risky," he said, noting the Dutch and Canadian troops aren't fighting a classic war.
"Winning is that at a certain moment, you can say to Kabul, to President (Hamid) Karzai, 'we think you can do it on your own,'" he said.
"It will be a responsible measure to say goodbye to you. The Taliban maybe will be there in some corners of your country, but they are not a real danger for Kandahar or Kabul. That, if you wish, is winning."

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...hub=TopStories

[Hanno Spoelstra]

This armoured DAF truck was recently returned to Holland for repairs after seeing service in Afghanistan (source). . . . .

[Hanno Spoelstra]

. . . with this note found inside!

You're welcome to it, Canadian friends!

[John McGillivray]

R.I.P.

Last Updated: 13/01/2008 10:57
Two Dutch killed in Afghanistan

Two Dutch soldiers were killed in a clash with militants in Afghanistan, the Netherlands' Defence Ministry confirmed today.
A 20-year old private and a 22-year old corporal died during a firefight with "opposing militant forces" on Saturday at around 9 p.m. local time, the ministry said.
Two Afghan soldiers were killed in fighting later the same evening, the ministry said.
Around 1,650 Dutch troops are serving in the southern Afghan province of Uruzgan as part of the NATO mission there. Since their mission began last year, 14 Dutch troops have died.
The firefight took place around 3 miles northwest of Camp Hadrian, near the southern town of Deh Rawod, said Gen. Dick Berlijn, commander of Dutch forces in Afghanistan.
The soldiers who were killed were part of an operation in which several hundred Dutch and Afghan soldiers were attempting to gauge prospects for refugees currently sheltering in the Deh Rawod bazaar to return home, Berlijn said.
"In the evening hours, a sizable firefight broke out. The circumstances around this firefight are not completely clear. It is clear that there was a lengthy fight, in which numerous units were involved," Berlijn said.
The region where the fighting took place has been restive for several months with numerous small groups of Taliban fighters known to be hiding there.
Dutch forces had seized weapons from several homes in raids Saturday, Berlijn said.
In November, Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende announced the Dutch would extend their mission in Afghanistan for two years after it was due to expire in August 2008.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/bre.../breaking7.htm

[Hanno Spoelstra]

Originally posted by John McGillivray
"In the evening hours, a sizable firefight broke out. The circumstances around this firefight are not completely clear. It is clear that there was a lengthy fight, in which numerous units were involved," Berlijn said.

Thanks John, I first read the news here.

The two Dutch soldiers were private first class Wesley Schol (20) and corporal Aldert Poortema (22). Two Afghan soldiers were also killed in action. Another Dutch soldier, Marc van de Kuilen (20), was wounded in a separate incident in the same vicinity. Consequently, both his legs had to be amputated in a military hospital.

Latest news is that the soldiers were most likely killed by friendly fire. A thorough investigation into what happened will be conducted.

Wesley, Aldert and Marc:

H.