Kitson Pease gearbox ???

rewdco · #1 23-09-07, 21:50

During my Royal Enfield WD/CO research, I have now found a 1943 War Department document which states that contract S/3357 should be delivered "with Kitson Pease gearbox". Has anybody ever heard of these gearboxes? To my knowledge, no Royal Enfield has ever been made with this make (???) of gearboxes, only Albion (and Burman for one single contract) gearboxes have been used for these military motorcycles. To be honest, I have never heard of a Kitson Pease gearbox. Is it slang? If so, what does it mean?

Or could this be a hint? On the website http://www.trainweb.org/loggingz/builders_1.html I have found that Kitson & Co., Airedale Foundry, Leeds, England was “… a locomotive builder, which just failed to achieve its century, and the Airedale Foundry was finally sold to neighbours McClaren's in 1945.”. Does anybody know if Kitson was assembling gearboxes (and perhaps also other things) during the war years? Maybe because of the air raids on Coventry and Birmingham production was transferred elsewhere?

REgards,
Jan

PPS · #2 24-09-07, 10:48

There is also a reference to the Kitson company on:-

http://www.answers.com/topic/kitson-co

It does not mention anything about gearboxes, mostly locomotives.

Have you tried any of the M/C collectors/enthusiast sites?

Paul.

PPS · #3 24-09-07, 11:13

This might help!

http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com...php?messid=903

It could lead to more info.

Paul.

PPS · #4 25-09-07, 00:18

With regard to this gearbox, I posted a message on the Hitchcocks forum and received the following two replies.

"Posted By Chris Hall On 2007-09-24 At 12:41:36

Its the first I've heard of this. How intresting, I thought the only deviation from the norm was the use of the Burman CPE box. "

"Posted By Mark M On 2007-09-24 At 20:30:42

Paul, there is no mention of this in my copy of Orchard and Madden's British Forces Motorcycles 1925-45 though the contract numbers and dates tally for 5000 WD/CO's. The only variant listed was as Chris says, for Burman gearboxes, apparently when the Albion works was temporarily out of action. More info please?
REgards, Mark "

I gave them both the link to your original post about this box, so maybe they can come up with something.

Paul.

rewdco · #5 28-09-07, 22:21

Hi Paul,

Thank you very much for your investigation! But it looks as if the Kitson Pease gearbox mystery hasn’t been solved yet…

However, I have found some new information about the Burman gearboxes. The Birmingham library, who holds the Birmingham air raid maps, has confirmed that incendiary bombs fell close to the Albion factory during raids on 25/10/1940, 22-23/11/1940 and 3/12/1940. The bombs of 22-23/11/1904 being so close that they may have actually hit the Albion factory. High Explosive bombs fell close to the factory on 15-16/6/1940 and 26/10/1940.

But the demand date for the Burman equipped motorcycles was 14/03/1942, this was long after the air raids… I am pretty sure that there must have been another reason for this special contract. By the way, many motorcycles from this contract have been despatched to “Dudley Zoo”, according to the old factory ledgers… I wonder if this location had anything to do with the NFS during the war?

This “Kitson Pease gear box” specification was for contract number S/3357. This contract was initially for 5000 motorcycles, but according to the factory ledgers, only 1500 of these have been built. This information is now confirmed: on this card, the 5000 has been replaced by 1500. The dating officer in the Royal Enfield Owners Club told me about the S/3357 contract: “Most of the machines have a first despatch date of 1945 (14/06/1945 onwards) and either came back or were not sent and the second date is shown as 1946.”. This phrase plus the fact that 3500 bikes were canceled (?) at the very last moment makes me think that (most of) these bikes were never used by the forces. It looks as if all these bikes have gone to dealerships for private customers. Let's not forget that the war in Western Europe was over when they were made!

On the back of this card, there was another note: “All vehicles to be made suitable for the TROPICS”. For as far as I know, this was the only contract to be equipped with the Vokes filter, and the only contract with the simplified WD standardised electrical system (no ammeter, modified lightswitch under the seat). I’m pretty sure that the Vokes filters were removed when these bikes were sold to the public in 1946…

REgards,
Jan

Richard Farrant · #6 28-09-07, 22:29

Jan,

A way to check further on these gearboxes, is to try and find a Parts List for that actual Contract no., then by comparing part numbers with other Parts Lists, will you get to the bottom of this.

Check out the cover page of parts lists for the Contract that is covered by it.

rewdco · #7 28-09-07, 22:34

Hi Richard,

Have done so! But the parts list for this contract shows a normal Albion 'box, with all the usual Albion numbers...

REgards,
Jan

Richard Farrant · #8 28-09-07, 22:59

Quote:

Originally posted by rewdco

Have done so! But the parts list for this contract shows a normal Albion 'box, with all the usual Albion numbers...

Jan,

Then it makes me wonder if this Kitson Pease is a subcontracted manufacturer producing Albion boxes, due to a shortage, bomb damaged factory, etc.

rewdco · #9 28-09-07, 23:05

Hi Richard,

It does indeed seem to be a subcontractor... Problem is: I can't find any evidence or any other details to prove this theory...

REgards,
Jan

PPS · #10 30-09-07, 12:49

Hello Jan,

Glad to know that I may have been of (a little) help in your investigation.

I suppose another possible way of confirming or refuting the evidence is to find someone with a bike from this contract (if possible) and getting details of the 'box fitted.

It does seem likely though given the details of bombing raids, that the factory may have been damaged, or that damage was anticipated, and the production was subcontracted.

Paul.

PPS · #11 01-10-07, 01:06

It seems that the spirit of comradeship does not extend everywhere!!!

I will explain.

In connection with this query I found a site connected to Birmingham local history, joined the Forum and posted this message:-

"My first post on this forum so I might be in the wrong place, but here goes.

I participate in another Forum that is militarily based and have come across an enquiry about a particular model of the Royal Enfield WD/CO. According to the post this model was fitted with a Kitson Pease gearbox (details of which no trace can be found) when most where fitted with Albion gearboxes, and some fitted with Burman 'boxes.

The details are too long to post here but I submit the link below if anyone is interested.

http://www.mapleleafup.org/forums/sh...4263#post84263

The originator of the post is trying to confirm or refute the details of this bike, and whether the factory could have been put out of production during WW2.

Thank you in anticipation.

PPS"

I have just checked my e-mails and found this reply (spaces deleted to save space):-

"Ah yes I see you were given some advice on another 'lightweight' forum to contact the Motorcycle Museum!
Dont bother!
I am the motorcycle researcher for our site and I have never heard of this gearbox. I also do not know of any Birmingham factory being put out of production during the war, production carried on regardless, somewhere, somehow!
I notice someone mentioned Dudley Zoo, this site was used for Spitfire or Spitfire part production during the war but i do not know anymore contact the Black Country Archives for more information.
If a gearbox manufacturer operated in Birmingham under that name it would appear in Kellys directory.(Available in Bham Ref. Library)
They will look it up for you if you cannot get there.
see this link http://www.madeinbirmingham.org/foru....php?p=602#602
The manufacture of gearwheels is specialist and not work that just any factory could do so it is unlikely that it was work just given to any old factory, this would be a gearwheel manufacturer, gearcases could me made in most factories.
For RE information contact the owners club
http://www.royalenfield.org.uk/index.php
If they were motorcycle gearbox manufacturers details would be available at the VINTAGE MOTORCYCLE CLUB at Burton upon Trent.
http://www.vmcc.net/
You last option is a request in the letters section of Old Bike Mart.
http://www.oldbikemart.co.uk/
Jon Price
www.madeinbirmingham.org
_________________
JP --- History is just one thing after the other!

I replied as follows (again spaces edited to save space):-
My post was made in good faith on behalf of a member of another Forum and I find your reply a rather hurtful. I was not asked to contact anybody, I did this on my own in a spirit of comradeship with those connected to the service (and ex-service) community, no matter where they are in the Commonwealth.
All I was asking was if anyone could give some light on this matter, I did not ask for a diatribe or to feel belittled for asking a question. Did you even look properly at the link I posted? If you did you would have seen;
1. Where the person who asked the original question is based.
2. Scans of the documentation that is held.
To call the other Forum "lightweight" is rather disrespectful to the reason it was initially founded. These are people who wish to keep history alive in their own way by remembering men and equipment that was used, and to provide information to those who wish to learn.
Also, I am from a motor vehicle engineering background and quite appreciate the complexities of the manufacture of gearwheels and other precision parts. I also appreciate that in your own words in your reply; "The manufacture of gearwheels is specialist and not work that just any factory could do so it is unlikely that it was work just given to any old factory, gearcases could me made in most factories". These are your words complete with spelling mistakes."

Needless to say, I will not be back there. Possibly I did not couch my question in the correct way, but still feel hurt and disappointed with the initial part of the answer. And this is one of my own countrymen!!!!!

Paul.

Rich Payne · #12 01-10-07, 12:57

Paul,

You have unwitingly stumbled upon a state of war between two Birmingham local history forums. One once accused the other of lifting material from their site and they have gone on from there.

Don't take it personally, you just had the misfortune to post on the 'other' forum than the one Jan had tried.

It reinforces what a well-mannered respectful forum MLU is. Sadly in so many areas, even something as a mundane as local history, there are conflicts out of proportion to the importance of the subject !